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 Re: I couldn't possibly disagree with you more!
Author: Gunnar 
Date:   04-11-04 17:31

Ryan, what is dishonest about pointing out that the physical evidence for a world-wide flood simply is not there? How can the absence of such evidence possibly be explained other than by concluding either that such a flood did not occur or that God deliberately erased such evidence? If the latter, then it is God who is being deceitful and dishonest, not I!

With regard to the historical evidence you replied, "Time and dating are understood differently in the context of God's reasons for doing everything His way."

It amazes me that you cannot see how incredibly weak that argument is! If anyone else used a similar argument to justify a belief contrary to compelling evidence and sound reason, and which you acknowledge as false, you would agree with me that they are using "division by zero logic." Why is that type of argument even the slightest bit more reasonable when you use it to defend your beliefs? Because you have the truth and anyone who disagrees with you doesn't? Do you honestly believe that no one whose religious convictions are contrary to yours could possibly be as sincere or honest as you are in claiming to have received them via divinely inspired answer to prayer? You stoutly maintain (or at least strongly imply) that anyone whose religious "testimony" conflicts with yours must be either dishonest or inspired by Satan, rather than by God, and that only you and those whose religious beliefs are consistent with your own could possibly be inspired by God. Can you understand why anyone would perceive such an attitude as incredibly arrogant?

I repeat again, merely having to fall back on that kind of approach to defend something is enormously damaging if not actually fatal to whatever is thus defended. Even if it is taken for granted that anything is possible for God, using that alone as an excuse for believing something that would not otherwise be believed by anyone with a modicum of sense is an extremely weak and unacceptable argument!

I ask you again, do you think that the 9/11 terrorists' "testimony" that they were doing the will of Allah was any weaker than your own testimony? They gave their lives for that testimony, for God's sake (or, rather, Allah's sake)!

You said, "Yet I have only words on a screen to confirm your existance. The manifestation of God's spirit is far more than that." The only evidence I have that "the manifestation of God's spirit is far more than that" is your flat, unsupported assertion that it is so. Even if I shared your "testimony" of the truthfulness of the Gospel, it would still be a very weak argument! Must I point out again that the simple fact that there are so many mutually contradictory belief systems whose adherents apparently sincerely believe are manifestations of God's spirit very strongly refutes that assertion? I guess your answer to that would be that it only proves that those belief systems contrary to your own are not genuinely "manifestations of God's spirit," despite what their adherents may claim.

By the way, if you don't want to believe in my existence based only on "words on a screen," that would not hurt my feelings at all. Be assured, though, that I do believe in yourexistence based on the same evidence.

Still your friend, despite our differences of opinion;

Gunnar

PS In another post, our mutual friend, Craig, pointed out another example of the unreliability of subjective, spiritual testimony. Just before the mass suicide of the Jonestown community, they held what was, in effect, a "testimony meeting" wherein many of them stood before the congregation and testified of their commitment to the truthfulness of the cause for which they were giving up their lives. Do you think that they were any less convinced than you are of the validity of their own testimony and commitment?
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 Topics Author  Date
 Evidence  new
Triking 03-16-04 21:28 
 Re: Evidence  new
Craig 03-17-04 01:16 
 Re: Evidence  new
damndope 03-17-04 13:45 
 Re: Evidence  new
Craig 03-18-04 12:08 
 Re: Evidence  new
damndope 03-18-04 14:03 
 Re: Evidence  new
Craig 03-18-04 16:02 
 Re: Evidence  new
damndope 03-19-04 00:44 
 Re: Evidence  new
rpcman 03-19-04 10:25 
 flood, etc.  new
Ryan 04-01-04 14:28 
 Now you see it; now you don't. Magic! n/t  new
Craig 04-01-04 18:14 
 Not the flood again  new
Jersey Girl 04-01-04 20:18 
 Re: Not the flood again  new
TLC 04-07-04 18:53 
 Re: Not the flood again  new
Jersey Girl 04-09-04 01:44 
 Still relying on "Division-by-Zero Logic, Ryan?  new
Gunnar 04-02-04 02:22 
 The difference  new
Ryan 04-09-04 18:26 
 Re: The difference  new
Louie 04-09-04 23:24 
 Louie, Louie  new
Jersey Girl 04-09-04 23:33 
 Re: Louie, Louie  new
TLC 04-10-04 08:30 
 Evidence for Love  new
JAK 04-10-04 10:45 
 Re: Evidence for Love  
Ryan 04-11-04 05:14 
 talking of evidence  new
Ryan 04-11-04 05:13 
 Re: talking of evidence  
Louie 04-12-04 11:44 
 Re: talking of evidence  new
TLC 04-12-04 17:51 
 Nail on the head, TLC  new
Jersey Girl 04-11-04 13:06 
 Re: Louie, Louie  new
Louie 04-12-04 11:15 
 Re: The difference  new
Ryan 04-11-04 05:08 
 I couldn't possibly disagree with you more!  new
Gunnar 04-10-04 06:34 
 Re: I couldn't possibly disagree with you more!  new
Ryan 04-11-04 05:06 
 terrorist epistemology  
Craig 04-11-04 13:23 
 Wow! what a chilling story! n/t  
Gunnar 04-11-04 17:44 
 Check out "Under the Banner of Heaven"  new
Craig 04-11-04 21:09 
 Out on the limb, as usual  new
Jersey Girl 04-11-04 19:04 
 No, this is spot on  
Craig 04-11-04 20:15 
 Uh, Craig?  new
Jersey Girl 04-11-04 21:50 
 Re: No, this is spot on...Craig?  
Jersey Girl 04-12-04 23:21 
 Craig, this thread is going to get locked at 150  new
Jersey Girl 04-12-04 23:35 
 Re: terrorist epistemology  new
TLC 04-12-04 18:15 
 I don't think i want to get on your bad side. n/t  new
Craig 04-12-04 19:00 
 huh  new
Ryan 04-12-04 20:18 
 But that is not what happened, Ryan  new
Jersey Girl 04-11-04 14:41 
 is the bible only partially true?  new
marg 04-11-04 20:51 
 Re: is the bible only partially true?  
Ramona 04-12-04 14:15 
 Unquestionable historical facts?  new
TLC 04-12-04 16:47 
 Re: Unquestionable historical facts?  new
Ramona 04-12-04 20:15 
 Ramona, I'm surprised at you!  new
Jersey Girl 04-12-04 22:57 
 Re: is the bible only partially true?  new
marg 04-12-04 17:06 
 Re: is the bible only partially true?  
Jersey Girl 04-12-04 19:44 
 Re: is the bible only partially true?  new
Ramona 04-12-04 20:31 
 Disconnect, marg  new
Jersey Girl 04-12-04 15:25 
 Re: Disconnect, marg  
marg 04-12-04 17:10 
 It was good  new
Ryan 04-12-04 20:12 
 Re: I couldn't possibly disagree with you more!  
Gunnar 04-11-04 17:31 
 sound and valid  new
Ryan 04-12-04 20:27 
 Re: The difference  new
Louie 04-12-04 12:06 
 Re: The difference  new
Ryan 04-12-04 20:23 
 Re: flood, etc.  new
TLC 04-07-04 12:49 
 Shapeshifting Mormonism and Loki the Deceiver  new
Craig 03-19-04 11:12 
 Postmodernism mormonism  new
philo 03-19-04 15:26 
 Re: Shapeshifting Mormonism and Loki the Deceiver  new
damndope 03-25-04 23:00 
 Re: Shapeshifting Mormonism and Loki the Deceiver  
Craig 03-25-04 23:54 
 The limits of continuing revelation  new
rpcman 03-26-04 11:28 
 excellent points n/t  new
Craig 03-26-04 12:12 
 I agree! nt  new
Gunnar 04-10-04 07:01 
 rpcman's review of dopey's heroes  new
Martin 03-26-04 07:01 
 Re: rpcman's review of dopey's heroes  new
damndope 04-01-04 00:07 
 Here's the evidence  new
Martin 03-17-04 07:28 
 Re: Evidence  new
Karyn 03-17-04 12:53 
 Re: Evidence  
damndope 03-17-04 16:51 
 Re: EVIDENCE  new
JAK 03-17-04 20:31 
 Re: EVIDENCE  new
Karyn 03-24-04 16:14 
 Re: EVIDENCE  
Fer-de-lance 03-24-04 17:00 
 Re: EVIDENCE  new
Karyn 03-24-04 19:45 
 The Question of Universe  new
JAK 03-25-04 00:07 
 Re: The Question of Universe  new
Karyn 03-25-04 01:13 
 Re: The Question of Universe  new
JAK 03-26-04 00:21 
 Re: The Question of Universe  new
TLC 04-08-04 16:05 
 Re: The Question of Universe or just endless space  new
RockWalk 03-25-04 22:56 
 Re: The Question of Universe or just endless space  
Karyn 03-26-04 00:49 
 Thanks for a sincere response!  new
RockWalk 03-27-04 01:23 
 Re: Thanks for a sincere response!  new
Karyn 03-27-04 04:22 
 for with God, all things are possible?  new
TLC 04-08-04 15:04 
 Contradictions  new
JAK 04-08-04 17:16 
 Re: Contradictions  new
TLC 04-12-04 17:26 
 Re: Contradictions  new
JAK 04-12-04 22:40 
 Re: The Question of Universe or just endless space  new
TLC 04-08-04 16:59 
 Question for Karyn  
Gunnar 04-09-04 02:47 
 Re: The Question of Universe or just endless space  new
Martin 03-27-04 12:38 
 Re: The Question of Universe or just endless space  new
RockWalk 03-27-04 23:37 
 Re: The Question of Universe or just endless space  new
Martin 03-29-04 07:33 
 On Dark Energy  new
Karyn 03-29-04 13:00 
 Re: On Dark Energy  new
TLC 04-08-04 15:17 
 I'll get back to this  new
RockWalk 03-29-04 14:41 
 Re: EVIDENCE  new
Fer-de-lance 03-25-04 00:46 
 Re: EVIDENCE  new
Karyn 03-25-04 02:56 
 "Space is something. Air has properties."  new
Fer-de-lance 03-26-04 13:35 
 On quantum physics and creatio ex nihlo  new
Karyn 03-27-04 04:41 
 Re: On quantum physics and creatio ex nihlo  new
Fer-de-lance 03-27-04 15:37 
 Re: EVIDENCE (Your question??) perhaps  new
JAK 03-24-04 21:53 
 Re: Observations on your answer  new
Karyn 03-25-04 02:42 
 Parts I, II, & III Obserbations on your answer  new
JAK 03-27-04 22:57 
 Karyn - A Brief Addition  new
JAK 03-28-04 00:56 
 Response Part 1 - Evidence for God  new
Karyn 03-28-04 03:04 
 Response Part 2 - Other Questions  new
Karyn 03-29-04 02:06 
 1st Rejoinder  new
JAK 03-31-04 14:00 
 2nd Rejoinder  new
JAK 03-31-04 14:35 
 Re: 2nd Rejoinder  new
Karyn 03-31-04 20:27 
 Tahiti  new
JAK 03-31-04 23:18 
 Re: Tahiti  new
Karyn 04-01-04 13:21 
 have a good trip  new
marg 04-01-04 01:25 
 Re: have a good trip  new
JAK 04-02-04 20:47 
 a question  new
marg 04-03-04 14:02 
 Re: a question  new
JAK 04-03-04 20:04 
 Re: a question  new
marg 04-04-04 16:41 
 Re: a question  new
Jersey Girl 04-04-04 14:28 
 Re: a question  new
marg 04-04-04 17:32 
 Wait a second, marg  new
Jersey Girl 04-04-04 19:26 
 raised to believe  new
marg 04-04-04 19:40 
 Quickie reply  new
Jersey Girl 04-04-04 20:01 
 Re: Quickie reply  new
marg 04-04-04 20:41 
 Re: Quickie reply  new
JAK 04-04-04 23:09 
 Re: Quickie reply  new
marg 04-05-04 00:05 
 Re: Quickie reply  new
JAK 04-05-04 21:01 
 Re: raised to believe  new
JAK 04-04-04 23:42 
 Re: raised to believe  new
marg 04-05-04 00:27 
 Re: raised to believe  new
JAK 04-05-04 21:55 
 Re: raised to believe  new
marg 04-06-04 03:05 
 Rejoinder Response Part 1 - Evidence for God  new
JAK 03-30-04 23:00 
 Re: Response Part 1 - Evidence for God  new
Louie 04-07-04 11:04 
 I'll tell you what it would take to make me a believer  new
TLC 04-08-04 14:26 
 Re: I'll tell you what it would take to make me a believer  new
marg 04-08-04 15:18 
 One for you  new
TLC 04-08-04 15:34 
 Re: One for you  new
marg 04-08-04 16:00 
 Re: One more  new
TLC 04-08-04 16:11 
 Conclusion --  new
JAK 04-08-04 17:26 
 Re: Conclusion --  new
Bahman 04-08-04 17:49 
 Re: I'll tell you what it would take to make me a believer  new
that Christian guy 04-11-04 23:56 
 Re: I'll tell you what it would take to make me a believer  new
TLC 04-12-04 07:34 
 Re: I'll tell you what it would take to make me a believer  new
that Christian guy 04-12-04 19:43 
 Re: I'll tell you what it would take to make me a believer  new
that Christian guy 04-12-04 22:58 
 On imposition  new
Ramona 04-12-04 13:33 
 Well stated! N/T  new
TLC 04-12-04 16:22 
 Re: On imposition  new
that Christian guy 04-12-04 19:47 
 Re: On imposition  new
Ramona 04-12-04 20:40 
 Re: On imposition  new
that Christian guy 04-12-04 21:52 
 Re: I'll tell you what it would take to make me a believer  new
that Christian guy 04-12-04 19:53 
 Modern Evolution  new
Ramona 04-02-04 11:33 
 Another good example of evolution in action.  new
Gunnar 04-10-04 06:54 
 Oh, but Gunnar, don't you know.......  new
TLC 04-10-04 08:42 
 Oh, of course!  new
Gunnar 04-10-04 18:26 
 142 Posts  new
nofaith 04-12-04 20:39 


 This thread is closed 

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