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 Re: I couldn't possibly disagree with you more!
Author: Ryan 
Date:   04-11-04 05:06

I insist that "division by zero logic" does indeed apply here.

You think that if an all-powerful God exists, the option of flooding the earth and then restoring it to it's natural state is as impossible as trying to divide by zero? If you really believe that, you are thinking with too many emotions. Gunnar, it doesn't take a genius to deduce that an all-powerful being can do anything so long as it isn't logically inconsistant. There's nothing inconsistant about destroying something which has been corrupted and then restoring it to it's pre-corrupted state.

To explain away evidence, gelogical or otherwise, that so strongly refutes what you would rather believe by simply claiming, "anything is possible for God"

Anything IS possible for God, Gunnar. Try to judge this from my paradigm, not yours. And, yes, there is good reason why God would flood the earth (symbolizing baptism) and then restore it to it's state before wickedness had run rampant. It's not a copout, it's simple logic. When you believe in God, EVERYTHING is seen through different lenses.

You know full well that almost any conceivable nonsense can be and has been justified in that manner. I still say that merely having to fall back on that type of ploy

Nonsense can be justified through any number of means. The difference here is that you are the one challenging whether or not God could have done something. Do you see the difference between someone going through the streets declaring all manner of nonsense in 'the name' of God and someone who yells loudly, as you have done, that God is not capable of doing something a certain way, that it is logically invalid? You are both making unfounded assertions. You are the one making the assertion that omnipotent doesn't really mean omnipotent and that God should be held accountable not by what He says in scripture but by what our scientists say. You are confusing my place in this argument with your own.
As for the ploy, What ploy? If you believe God is all-powerful, it all makes sense. You seem to be adding all sorts of mental clutter to this issue. The point is simple, logical and straightforward. God tells us exactly what happened. We can believe it or not. If we don't believe it, it's a matter of self-deception-- don't blame it on God. If you ask God to tell you something but you are determined already in your mind that even when He tells you exactly what happened, it's deceitful, why should He tell you anything?

"whether God caused such a flood and then deliberately erased the physical evidence of it happening.... that still leaves us with a God that is deliberately deceitful and playing tricks on us."

What's so deceitful about saying that something that happened happened?

TLC made a very good point that you have not come even close to satisfactorily addressing: "Ryan; Please tell me why you think a God would use "natural" effects,

There's good reason I haven't addressed it. It's silly. God intervening in the world's state and creating a global flood is hardly 'natural' effects. God flooded the earth with His power, it was supernatural.

such as a flood to drown and kill all terrestial life except Noah and his family and pairs of worldwide species, and then turn right around and use "unnatural" (supernatural) methods to bring it all back to normal?"

Gunnar, I thought you didn't believe in the concept of supernatural, theologically or elsewise. You said that all things are natural, although we haven't discovered everything yet. That answers the silly, silly question you quote here. The fact that you speak so highly of such nonsense says something of your unintentional bias on this issue.

Why would God cause such a flood, then try to eliminate the evidence that he did it,

Gunnar, I've come to expect more intellectual honesty from you. God hasn't tried to eliminate any evidence. God had his reasons for the earth being just as it is. The real evidence, the only evidence that God offers or cares about is right there if you are willing to kneel in humility and ask for His advice.

and then tell us to believe he did it anyway? This makes not the slightest bit of sense!

If you assume he's lying or trying to deceive you, a priori.

You talked of geophysical evidence against the flood, as if that were the only evidence against it. Just as damaging is the historical evidence against it. If Biblical chronology is taken to be at all accurate, the flood could not have occurred any earlier than about 2400 BCE. The problem with that is that we have the written records left by several civilizations

Time and dating are understood differently in the context of God's reasons for doing everything His way.

You place such great stock in your inner conviction or faith that God has confirmed his existence to you. I say that no belief or belief system is more deservedly suspect than one that can only be supported by invoking the claim of divine revelation

Yet I have only words on a screen to confirm your existance. The manifestation of God's spirit is far more than that.

Can you deny that there are numerous, mutually contradictory beliefs whose adherents sincerely claim such authority

There's also a devil, and the fact that God deals with each individual's understanding so things can seem contradictory. You don't have to belong to a certain Church to receive revelation from your Heavenly Father. When you die and see the world of spirits, you will remember all the things that really are of substance. This world and all the erroneous thinking you had here will be but a sad afterthought. The gospel is not part of this life, life is part of the gospel. It would really be sad if you let the ideas and understanding of this world stand in the way of loving the Heavenly Father you knew as a child. The way to know the truth is to ask God. The only truth that has any substance at all.
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 Topics Author  Date
 Evidence  
Triking 03-16-04 21:28 
 Re: Evidence  new
Craig 03-17-04 01:16 
 Re: Evidence  new
damndope 03-17-04 13:45 
 Re: Evidence  new
Craig 03-18-04 12:08 
 Re: Evidence  new
damndope 03-18-04 14:03 
 Re: Evidence  new
Craig 03-18-04 16:02 
 Re: Evidence  new
damndope 03-19-04 00:44 
 Re: Evidence  new
rpcman 03-19-04 10:25 
 flood, etc.  new
Ryan 04-01-04 14:28 
 Now you see it; now you don't. Magic! n/t  new
Craig 04-01-04 18:14 
 Not the flood again  new
Jersey Girl 04-01-04 20:18 
 Re: Not the flood again  new
TLC 04-07-04 18:53 
 Re: Not the flood again  new
Jersey Girl 04-09-04 01:44 
 Still relying on "Division-by-Zero Logic, Ryan?  new
Gunnar 04-02-04 02:22 
 The difference  new
Ryan 04-09-04 18:26 
 Re: The difference  new
Louie 04-09-04 23:24 
 Louie, Louie  new
Jersey Girl 04-09-04 23:33 
 Re: Louie, Louie  new
TLC 04-10-04 08:30 
 Evidence for Love  new
JAK 04-10-04 10:45 
 Re: Evidence for Love  new
Ryan 04-11-04 05:14 
 talking of evidence  new
Ryan 04-11-04 05:13 
 Re: talking of evidence  new
Louie 04-12-04 11:44 
 Re: talking of evidence  new
TLC 04-12-04 17:51 
 Nail on the head, TLC  new
Jersey Girl 04-11-04 13:06 
 Re: Louie, Louie  new
Louie 04-12-04 11:15 
 Re: The difference  new
Ryan 04-11-04 05:08 
 I couldn't possibly disagree with you more!  
Gunnar 04-10-04 06:34 
 Re: I couldn't possibly disagree with you more!  
Ryan 04-11-04 05:06 
 terrorist epistemology  new
Craig 04-11-04 13:23 
 Wow! what a chilling story! n/t  new
Gunnar 04-11-04 17:44 
 Check out "Under the Banner of Heaven"  new
Craig 04-11-04 21:09 
 Out on the limb, as usual  new
Jersey Girl 04-11-04 19:04 
 No, this is spot on  new
Craig 04-11-04 20:15 
 Uh, Craig?  new
Jersey Girl 04-11-04 21:50 
 Re: No, this is spot on...Craig?  new
Jersey Girl 04-12-04 23:21 
 Craig, this thread is going to get locked at 150  new
Jersey Girl 04-12-04 23:35 
 Re: terrorist epistemology  new
TLC 04-12-04 18:15 
 I don't think i want to get on your bad side. n/t  new
Craig 04-12-04 19:00 
 huh  new
Ryan 04-12-04 20:18 
 But that is not what happened, Ryan  
Jersey Girl 04-11-04 14:41 
 is the bible only partially true?  new
marg 04-11-04 20:51 
 Re: is the bible only partially true?  new
Ramona 04-12-04 14:15 
 Unquestionable historical facts?  new
TLC 04-12-04 16:47 
 Re: Unquestionable historical facts?  new
Ramona 04-12-04 20:15 
 Ramona, I'm surprised at you!  new
Jersey Girl 04-12-04 22:57 
 Re: is the bible only partially true?  new
marg 04-12-04 17:06 
 Re: is the bible only partially true?  new
Jersey Girl 04-12-04 19:44 
 Re: is the bible only partially true?  new
Ramona 04-12-04 20:31 
 Disconnect, marg  new
Jersey Girl 04-12-04 15:25 
 Re: Disconnect, marg  new
marg 04-12-04 17:10 
 It was good  new
Ryan 04-12-04 20:12 
 Re: I couldn't possibly disagree with you more!  new
Gunnar 04-11-04 17:31 
 sound and valid  new
Ryan 04-12-04 20:27 
 Re: The difference  new
Louie 04-12-04 12:06 
 Re: The difference  new
Ryan 04-12-04 20:23 
 Re: flood, etc.  new
TLC 04-07-04 12:49 
 Shapeshifting Mormonism and Loki the Deceiver  new
Craig 03-19-04 11:12 
 Postmodernism mormonism  new
philo 03-19-04 15:26 
 Re: Shapeshifting Mormonism and Loki the Deceiver  new
damndope 03-25-04 23:00 
 Re: Shapeshifting Mormonism and Loki the Deceiver  new
Craig 03-25-04 23:54 
 The limits of continuing revelation  new
rpcman 03-26-04 11:28 
 excellent points n/t  new
Craig 03-26-04 12:12 
 I agree! nt  new
Gunnar 04-10-04 07:01 
 rpcman's review of dopey's heroes  new
Martin 03-26-04 07:01 
 Re: rpcman's review of dopey's heroes  new
damndope 04-01-04 00:07 
 Here's the evidence  
Martin 03-17-04 07:28 
 Re: Evidence  new
Karyn 03-17-04 12:53 
 Re: Evidence  new
damndope 03-17-04 16:51 
 Re: EVIDENCE  
JAK 03-17-04 20:31 
 Re: EVIDENCE  new
Karyn 03-24-04 16:14 
 Re: EVIDENCE  new
Fer-de-lance 03-24-04 17:00 
 Re: EVIDENCE  new
Karyn 03-24-04 19:45 
 The Question of Universe  new
JAK 03-25-04 00:07 
 Re: The Question of Universe  new
Karyn 03-25-04 01:13 
 Re: The Question of Universe  new
JAK 03-26-04 00:21 
 Re: The Question of Universe  new
TLC 04-08-04 16:05 
 Re: The Question of Universe or just endless space  new
RockWalk 03-25-04 22:56 
 Re: The Question of Universe or just endless space  new
Karyn 03-26-04 00:49 
 Thanks for a sincere response!  new
RockWalk 03-27-04 01:23 
 Re: Thanks for a sincere response!  new
Karyn 03-27-04 04:22 
 for with God, all things are possible?  new
TLC 04-08-04 15:04 
 Contradictions  new
JAK 04-08-04 17:16 
 Re: Contradictions  
TLC 04-12-04 17:26 
 Re: Contradictions  new
JAK 04-12-04 22:40 
 Re: The Question of Universe or just endless space  new
TLC 04-08-04 16:59 
 Question for Karyn  new
Gunnar 04-09-04 02:47 
 Re: The Question of Universe or just endless space  new
Martin 03-27-04 12:38 
 Re: The Question of Universe or just endless space  new
RockWalk 03-27-04 23:37 
 Re: The Question of Universe or just endless space  new
Martin 03-29-04 07:33 
 On Dark Energy  new
Karyn 03-29-04 13:00 
 Re: On Dark Energy  new
TLC 04-08-04 15:17 
 I'll get back to this  new
RockWalk 03-29-04 14:41 
 Re: EVIDENCE  new
Fer-de-lance 03-25-04 00:46 
 Re: EVIDENCE  new
Karyn 03-25-04 02:56 
 "Space is something. Air has properties."  new
Fer-de-lance 03-26-04 13:35 
 On quantum physics and creatio ex nihlo  new
Karyn 03-27-04 04:41 
 Re: On quantum physics and creatio ex nihlo  new
Fer-de-lance 03-27-04 15:37 
 Re: EVIDENCE (Your question??) perhaps  new
JAK 03-24-04 21:53 
 Re: Observations on your answer  new
Karyn 03-25-04 02:42 
 Parts I, II, & III Obserbations on your answer  new
JAK 03-27-04 22:57 
 Karyn - A Brief Addition  new
JAK 03-28-04 00:56 
 Response Part 1 - Evidence for God  new
Karyn 03-28-04 03:04 
 Response Part 2 - Other Questions  new
Karyn 03-29-04 02:06 
 1st Rejoinder  new
JAK 03-31-04 14:00 
 2nd Rejoinder  new
JAK 03-31-04 14:35 
 Re: 2nd Rejoinder  new
Karyn 03-31-04 20:27 
 Tahiti  new
JAK 03-31-04 23:18 
 Re: Tahiti  new
Karyn 04-01-04 13:21 
 have a good trip  new
marg 04-01-04 01:25 
 Re: have a good trip  new
JAK 04-02-04 20:47 
 a question  new
marg 04-03-04 14:02 
 Re: a question  new
JAK 04-03-04 20:04 
 Re: a question  new
marg 04-04-04 16:41 
 Re: a question  new
Jersey Girl 04-04-04 14:28 
 Re: a question  new
marg 04-04-04 17:32 
 Wait a second, marg  new
Jersey Girl 04-04-04 19:26 
 raised to believe  new
marg 04-04-04 19:40 
 Quickie reply  new
Jersey Girl 04-04-04 20:01 
 Re: Quickie reply  new
marg 04-04-04 20:41 
 Re: Quickie reply  new
JAK 04-04-04 23:09 
 Re: Quickie reply  new
marg 04-05-04 00:05 
 Re: Quickie reply  new
JAK 04-05-04 21:01 
 Re: raised to believe  new
JAK 04-04-04 23:42 
 Re: raised to believe  new
marg 04-05-04 00:27 
 Re: raised to believe  new
JAK 04-05-04 21:55 
 Re: raised to believe  new
marg 04-06-04 03:05 
 Rejoinder Response Part 1 - Evidence for God  new
JAK 03-30-04 23:00 
 Re: Response Part 1 - Evidence for God  new
Louie 04-07-04 11:04 
 I'll tell you what it would take to make me a believer  new
TLC 04-08-04 14:26 
 Re: I'll tell you what it would take to make me a believer  new
marg 04-08-04 15:18 
 One for you  new
TLC 04-08-04 15:34 
 Re: One for you  new
marg 04-08-04 16:00 
 Re: One more  new
TLC 04-08-04 16:11 
 Conclusion --  new
JAK 04-08-04 17:26 
 Re: Conclusion --  new
Bahman 04-08-04 17:49 
 Re: I'll tell you what it would take to make me a believer  new
that Christian guy 04-11-04 23:56 
 Re: I'll tell you what it would take to make me a believer  new
TLC 04-12-04 07:34 
 Re: I'll tell you what it would take to make me a believer  new
that Christian guy 04-12-04 19:43 
 Re: I'll tell you what it would take to make me a believer  new
that Christian guy 04-12-04 22:58 
 On imposition  new
Ramona 04-12-04 13:33 
 Well stated! N/T  new
TLC 04-12-04 16:22 
 Re: On imposition  new
that Christian guy 04-12-04 19:47 
 Re: On imposition  new
Ramona 04-12-04 20:40 
 Re: On imposition  new
that Christian guy 04-12-04 21:52 
 Re: I'll tell you what it would take to make me a believer  new
that Christian guy 04-12-04 19:53 
 Modern Evolution  new
Ramona 04-02-04 11:33 
 Another good example of evolution in action.  new
Gunnar 04-10-04 06:54 
 Oh, but Gunnar, don't you know.......  new
TLC 04-10-04 08:42 
 Oh, of course!  new
Gunnar 04-10-04 18:26 
 142 Posts  new
nofaith 04-12-04 20:39 


 This thread is closed 

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