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 I couldn't possibly disagree with you more!
Author: Gunnar 
Date:   04-10-04 06:34

I insist that "division by zero logic" does indeed apply here. To explain away evidence, gelogical or otherwise, that so strongly refutes what you would rather believe by simply claiming, "anything is possible for God" is a tremendous copout. You know full well that almost any conceivable nonsense can be and has been justified in that manner. I still say that merely having to fall back on that type of ploy to defend something is as damaging to the credibility of whatever is thereby defended as anything I can possibly imagine. Besides, whether God caused such a flood and then deliberately erased the physical evidence of it happening or simply lied about it having happened, that still leaves us with a God that is deliberately deceitful and playing tricks on us. I cannot believe in such a God.

TLC made a very good point that you have not come even close to satisfactorily addressing: "Ryan; Please tell me why you think a God would use "natural" effects, such as a flood to drown and kill all terrestial life except Noah and his family and pairs of worldwide species, and then turn right around and use "unnatural" (supernatural) methods to bring it all back to normal?"

Why would God cause such a flood, then try to eliminate the evidence that he did it, and then tell us to believe he did it anyway? This makes not the slightest bit of sense!

You talked of geophysical evidence against the flood, as if that were the only evidence against it. Just as damaging is the historical evidence against it. If Biblical chronology is taken to be at all accurate, the flood could not have occurred any earlier than about 2400 BCE. The problem with that is that we have the written records left by several civilizations in several languages that show a historical record of their existence starting well before that date and continuing unbroken until well after that date. Did God fabricate these records as well, which further implies deliberate deceit on his part? Why would he do such a stupid thing as creating such records and then telling us not to believe them? Neither would it be credible to claim that these ancient civilizations were engaged in a coordinated, multinational, multilingual and multigenerational Satanic plot to deceive all futue generations about the reality of the flood.

You place such great stock in your inner conviction or faith that God has confirmed his existence to you. I say that no belief or belief system is more deservedly suspect than one that can only be supported by invoking the claim of divine revelation or inspiration for it. This is so obvious to me that it frankly amazes me that anyone could seriously doubt that! Can you deny that there are numerous, mutually contradictory beliefs whose adherents sincerely claim such authority for them? What stronger evidence can you have than that of the inherent unreliability of that approach to discerning truth? Do you seriously think that the 9/11 terrorists believed any less strongly than you do that their own beliefs and actions were divinely inspired and authorized?

I think it is safe to conclude that subjective faith in the divine origin of one's convictions, no matter how strong that faith, is, by itself, very far from a reliable indication that said convictions are correct!

Sincerely;

Gunnar
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 Topics Author  Date
 Evidence  new
Triking 03-16-04 21:28 
 Re: Evidence  new
Craig 03-17-04 01:16 
 Re: Evidence  new
damndope 03-17-04 13:45 
 Re: Evidence  new
Craig 03-18-04 12:08 
 Re: Evidence  new
damndope 03-18-04 14:03 
 Re: Evidence  new
Craig 03-18-04 16:02 
 Re: Evidence  new
damndope 03-19-04 00:44 
 Re: Evidence  new
rpcman 03-19-04 10:25 
 flood, etc.  new
Ryan 04-01-04 14:28 
 Now you see it; now you don't. Magic! n/t  new
Craig 04-01-04 18:14 
 Not the flood again  new
Jersey Girl 04-01-04 20:18 
 Re: Not the flood again  new
TLC 04-07-04 18:53 
 Re: Not the flood again  new
Jersey Girl 04-09-04 01:44 
 Still relying on "Division-by-Zero Logic, Ryan?  new
Gunnar 04-02-04 02:22 
 The difference  new
Ryan 04-09-04 18:26 
 Re: The difference  new
Louie 04-09-04 23:24 
 Louie, Louie  new
Jersey Girl 04-09-04 23:33 
 Re: Louie, Louie  new
TLC 04-10-04 08:30 
 Evidence for Love  new
JAK 04-10-04 10:45 
 Re: Evidence for Love  new
Ryan 04-11-04 05:14 
 talking of evidence  new
Ryan 04-11-04 05:13 
 Re: talking of evidence  new
Louie 04-12-04 11:44 
 Re: talking of evidence  new
TLC 04-12-04 17:51 
 Nail on the head, TLC  new
Jersey Girl 04-11-04 13:06 
 Re: Louie, Louie  new
Louie 04-12-04 11:15 
 Re: The difference  new
Ryan 04-11-04 05:08 
 I couldn't possibly disagree with you more!  new
Gunnar 04-10-04 06:34 
 Re: I couldn't possibly disagree with you more!  new
Ryan 04-11-04 05:06 
 terrorist epistemology  new
Craig 04-11-04 13:23 
 Wow! what a chilling story! n/t  new
Gunnar 04-11-04 17:44 
 Check out "Under the Banner of Heaven"  new
Craig 04-11-04 21:09 
 Out on the limb, as usual  new
Jersey Girl 04-11-04 19:04 
 No, this is spot on  new
Craig 04-11-04 20:15 
 Uh, Craig?  new
Jersey Girl 04-11-04 21:50 
 Re: No, this is spot on...Craig?  new
Jersey Girl 04-12-04 23:21 
 Craig, this thread is going to get locked at 150  new
Jersey Girl 04-12-04 23:35 
 Re: terrorist epistemology  new
TLC 04-12-04 18:15 
 I don't think i want to get on your bad side. n/t  new
Craig 04-12-04 19:00 
 huh  new
Ryan 04-12-04 20:18 
 But that is not what happened, Ryan  new
Jersey Girl 04-11-04 14:41 
 is the bible only partially true?  new
marg 04-11-04 20:51 
 Re: is the bible only partially true?  new
Ramona 04-12-04 14:15 
 Unquestionable historical facts?  new
TLC 04-12-04 16:47 
 Re: Unquestionable historical facts?  new
Ramona 04-12-04 20:15 
 Ramona, I'm surprised at you!  new
Jersey Girl 04-12-04 22:57 
 Re: is the bible only partially true?  new
marg 04-12-04 17:06 
 Re: is the bible only partially true?  new
Jersey Girl 04-12-04 19:44 
 Re: is the bible only partially true?  new
Ramona 04-12-04 20:31 
 Disconnect, marg  new
Jersey Girl 04-12-04 15:25 
 Re: Disconnect, marg  new
marg 04-12-04 17:10 
 It was good  new
Ryan 04-12-04 20:12 
 Re: I couldn't possibly disagree with you more!  new
Gunnar 04-11-04 17:31 
 sound and valid  new
Ryan 04-12-04 20:27 
 Re: The difference  new
Louie 04-12-04 12:06 
 Re: The difference  new
Ryan 04-12-04 20:23 
 Re: flood, etc.  new
TLC 04-07-04 12:49 
 Shapeshifting Mormonism and Loki the Deceiver  new
Craig 03-19-04 11:12 
 Postmodernism mormonism  new
philo 03-19-04 15:26 
 Re: Shapeshifting Mormonism and Loki the Deceiver  new
damndope 03-25-04 23:00 
 Re: Shapeshifting Mormonism and Loki the Deceiver  new
Craig 03-25-04 23:54 
 The limits of continuing revelation  new
rpcman 03-26-04 11:28 
 excellent points n/t  new
Craig 03-26-04 12:12 
 I agree! nt  new
Gunnar 04-10-04 07:01 
 rpcman's review of dopey's heroes  new
Martin 03-26-04 07:01 
 Re: rpcman's review of dopey's heroes  new
damndope 04-01-04 00:07 
 Here's the evidence  new
Martin 03-17-04 07:28 
 Re: Evidence  new
Karyn 03-17-04 12:53 
 Re: Evidence  new
damndope 03-17-04 16:51 
 Re: EVIDENCE  new
JAK 03-17-04 20:31 
 Re: EVIDENCE  new
Karyn 03-24-04 16:14 
 Re: EVIDENCE  new
Fer-de-lance 03-24-04 17:00 
 Re: EVIDENCE  new
Karyn 03-24-04 19:45 
 The Question of Universe  new
JAK 03-25-04 00:07 
 Re: The Question of Universe  new
Karyn 03-25-04 01:13 
 Re: The Question of Universe  new
JAK 03-26-04 00:21 
 Re: The Question of Universe  new
TLC 04-08-04 16:05 
 Re: The Question of Universe or just endless space  new
RockWalk 03-25-04 22:56 
 Re: The Question of Universe or just endless space  new
Karyn 03-26-04 00:49 
 Thanks for a sincere response!  new
RockWalk 03-27-04 01:23 
 Re: Thanks for a sincere response!  new
Karyn 03-27-04 04:22 
 for with God, all things are possible?  new
TLC 04-08-04 15:04 
 Contradictions  new
JAK 04-08-04 17:16 
 Re: Contradictions  new
TLC 04-12-04 17:26 
 Re: Contradictions  new
JAK 04-12-04 22:40 
 Re: The Question of Universe or just endless space  new
TLC 04-08-04 16:59 
 Question for Karyn  new
Gunnar 04-09-04 02:47 
 Re: The Question of Universe or just endless space  new
Martin 03-27-04 12:38 
 Re: The Question of Universe or just endless space  new
RockWalk 03-27-04 23:37 
 Re: The Question of Universe or just endless space  new
Martin 03-29-04 07:33 
 On Dark Energy  new
Karyn 03-29-04 13:00 
 Re: On Dark Energy  new
TLC 04-08-04 15:17 
 I'll get back to this  new
RockWalk 03-29-04 14:41 
 Re: EVIDENCE  new
Fer-de-lance 03-25-04 00:46 
 Re: EVIDENCE  new
Karyn 03-25-04 02:56 
 "Space is something. Air has properties."  new
Fer-de-lance 03-26-04 13:35 
 On quantum physics and creatio ex nihlo  new
Karyn 03-27-04 04:41 
 Re: On quantum physics and creatio ex nihlo  new
Fer-de-lance 03-27-04 15:37 
 Re: EVIDENCE (Your question??) perhaps  new
JAK 03-24-04 21:53 
 Re: Observations on your answer  new
Karyn 03-25-04 02:42 
 Parts I, II, & III Obserbations on your answer  new
JAK 03-27-04 22:57 
 Karyn - A Brief Addition  new
JAK 03-28-04 00:56 
 Response Part 1 - Evidence for God  new
Karyn 03-28-04 03:04 
 Response Part 2 - Other Questions  new
Karyn 03-29-04 02:06 
 1st Rejoinder  new
JAK 03-31-04 14:00 
 2nd Rejoinder  new
JAK 03-31-04 14:35 
 Re: 2nd Rejoinder  new
Karyn 03-31-04 20:27 
 Tahiti  new
JAK 03-31-04 23:18 
 Re: Tahiti  new
Karyn 04-01-04 13:21 
 have a good trip  new
marg 04-01-04 01:25 
 Re: have a good trip  new
JAK 04-02-04 20:47 
 a question  new
marg 04-03-04 14:02 
 Re: a question  new
JAK 04-03-04 20:04 
 Re: a question  new
marg 04-04-04 16:41 
 Re: a question  new
Jersey Girl 04-04-04 14:28 
 Re: a question  new
marg 04-04-04 17:32 
 Wait a second, marg  new
Jersey Girl 04-04-04 19:26 
 raised to believe  new
marg 04-04-04 19:40 
 Quickie reply  new
Jersey Girl 04-04-04 20:01 
 Re: Quickie reply  new
marg 04-04-04 20:41 
 Re: Quickie reply  new
JAK 04-04-04 23:09 
 Re: Quickie reply  new
marg 04-05-04 00:05 
 Re: Quickie reply  new
JAK 04-05-04 21:01 
 Re: raised to believe  new
JAK 04-04-04 23:42 
 Re: raised to believe  new
marg 04-05-04 00:27 
 Re: raised to believe  new
JAK 04-05-04 21:55 
 Re: raised to believe  new
marg 04-06-04 03:05 
 Rejoinder Response Part 1 - Evidence for God  new
JAK 03-30-04 23:00 
 Re: Response Part 1 - Evidence for God  new
Louie 04-07-04 11:04 
 I'll tell you what it would take to make me a believer  new
TLC 04-08-04 14:26 
 Re: I'll tell you what it would take to make me a believer  new
marg 04-08-04 15:18 
 One for you  new
TLC 04-08-04 15:34 
 Re: One for you  new
marg 04-08-04 16:00 
 Re: One more  new
TLC 04-08-04 16:11 
 Conclusion --  new
JAK 04-08-04 17:26 
 Re: Conclusion --  new
Bahman 04-08-04 17:49 
 Re: I'll tell you what it would take to make me a believer  new
that Christian guy 04-11-04 23:56 
 Re: I'll tell you what it would take to make me a believer  new
TLC 04-12-04 07:34 
 Re: I'll tell you what it would take to make me a believer  new
that Christian guy 04-12-04 19:43 
 Re: I'll tell you what it would take to make me a believer  new
that Christian guy 04-12-04 22:58 
 On imposition  new
Ramona 04-12-04 13:33 
 Well stated! N/T  new
TLC 04-12-04 16:22 
 Re: On imposition  new
that Christian guy 04-12-04 19:47 
 Re: On imposition  new
Ramona 04-12-04 20:40 
 Re: On imposition  new
that Christian guy 04-12-04 21:52 
 Re: I'll tell you what it would take to make me a believer  new
that Christian guy 04-12-04 19:53 
 Modern Evolution  new
Ramona 04-02-04 11:33 
 Another good example of evolution in action.  new
Gunnar 04-10-04 06:54 
 Oh, but Gunnar, don't you know.......  new
TLC 04-10-04 08:42 
 Oh, of course!  new
Gunnar 04-10-04 18:26 
 142 Posts  new
nofaith 04-12-04 20:39 


 This thread is closed 

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