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Posted by: shooter ® 05/26/2002, 22:07:10 Author Profile Mail author |
In the LDS framework of observing the sacrament they eat bread & water (not wine... with the excuse of cost & possibly enemies poisoning the wine) "in remembrance of me" as they observe this ritual. Catholics use 'bread' and wine, but observe the sacrament with the idea that they are actually eating the body & blood of Christ. How big is their Jesus to have that much flesh & blood eaten over the world constantly? Also, by believing they are eating the actual body & blood, doesn't this make them cannibals? |
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A Miraculous God Re: Are Catholics Cannibals? -- shooter Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Logan ®
05/27/2002, 00:31:17
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And on top of that... With the idea of a literal transformation of bread into flesh and wine into blood, Catholics the world over are suggesting that millions of divine MIRACLES are occuring every day -- that God is somehow performing an ongoing, tangible string of MIRACLES every single time someone takes Communion. And that, to me, is a bold idea.
If the Catholic God is performing these LITERAL, PHYSICAL, TANGIBLE MIRACLES -- and literally transforms bread into flesh and wine into blood every single time someone takes Communion -- then where are all the other tangible miracles He must surely be capable of performing? Remember, this particular belief is current -- in the year 2002 -- that God is constantly, miraculously turning bread into flesh and wine into blood, etc. It's not some antiquated, Old Testament doctrine.
So, with the concept of a current, miracle-performing God in these modern times, I would ask, where are the other miracles -- you know, the big ones -- like other physical transformations?
Peace,
Logan
Modified by Logan at Mon, May 27, 2002, 00:39:05
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The Miracle Men Re: A Miraculous God -- Logan Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Martin ®
05/27/2002, 05:45:21
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Logan, You have to understand that the Heavenly economy can only support just so many working angels. And the Eucharistic Miracle Food Workers Union is not just the only one to offer medical and dental insurance, but is also the only union God can't seem to bust.
What that means in the end is that Christal food conversion miracle work is the only game in town...
-Martin
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misconceptions Re: A Miraculous God -- Logan Top of thread Archive
Posted by: zip ®
05/28/2002, 22:55:28
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Logan,
They aren't actually eating human flesh or drinking human blood. That was rejected many centuries ago. It is the body of Christ their Lord that they believe they are consuming for the sake of renewing their salvation:
Matt.26 [26] And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.
[27] And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
[28] For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.The body of a godly Christ (if this stuff is true) is a far cry from the body of you or me.
As far as miracles go, Catholics and Christians worldwide believe in innumerable miracles that so many of us would ascribe to base science: birth, disappearance of illnesses, being alerted to an "unknown" danger, heroic acts, timely changes in fortune, etc. It is only for those who do not believe in miracles that miracles do not seem to be abundant. We're too focused on the things that go "wrong" in our lives or the lives of others.
zipperhead
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Do you believe in miracles? Re: misconceptions -- zip Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Cal ®
06/07/2002, 13:30:21
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Surely you don't think that skepticism about miracles has to stem from a focus on things that go "wrong" in our lives or others. There are plenty of miracle-believing pessimists and and plenty of skeptical optimists. At any rate, the question of whether we should believe in miracles has little to do with our personalities and predispositions. It has to do with whether miracles actually occur and whether there's good reason to believe that they occur in the first place.
And by appealing to the worldwide prevalence of the belief in miracles you don't accomplish anything on this score. There are plenty of instances where our species' common sense has proved wrong.
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Re: Do you believe in miracles? Re: Do you believe in miracles? -- Cal Top of thread Archive
Posted by: zip ®
06/07/2002, 22:37:25
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Cal, Surely you don't think that skepticism about miracles has to stem from a focus on things that go "wrong" in our lives or others. There are plenty of miracle-believing pessimists and and plenty of skeptical optimists.
You're right. I only wanted to say that there are fewer people who go looking for miracles. Or witches, or fairies or demons. This is directly a result of the scientific process which has "proven" so many things that were previously ascribed to the supernatural. And if there are fewer people who are prepared to explain something as "miraculous", then there are fewer miracles to talk about.One could argue, however, that the true miracles got obscured by and eventually dismissed with the other "miracles" that were never miracles in the first place. In other words, a) the belief that someone's cancer receded because of the miraculous intervention of God b)went away at the same rate as c) the belief a cat could draw the breath out of a baby. [a/b=c/b, equals fewer witnessed miracles] New information about cancer, asphyxiation and a plethora of other scientific facts made us question everything we had considered to be a result of supernatural effects within our world. Does any of that make sense?
At any rate, the question of whether we should believe in miracles has little to do with our personalities and predispositions. It has to do with whether miracles actually occur and whether there's good reason to believe that they occur in the first place.
I don't quite agree with you here. It is true that our personalities have little effect on whether we should believe in miracles, but our personalities for the most part determine whether we do believe in miracles. I contend that it is a matter of desire to expect miracles to be possible. Some people want them, some people can do without them.And by appealing to the worldwide prevalence of the belief in miracles you don't accomplish anything on this score. There are plenty of instances where our species' common sense has proved wrong.
Right. But this worldwide prevalence of the belief in miracles points to something. You can draw your own conclusions. But in the most technologically advanced society, we still have dozens, if not hundreds of people seeing, hearing, being healed by angels. We just don't talk about it because most people are told over and over that only crackpots believe in miracles. No one wants to be a crackpot. So, the stories are told with sincerity only in the closest circles. As the stories get outside of that circle, the "mircale" is relegated to the position of "coincidence" for mass consumption.I've had plenty of strange events and sudden, fortuitous turns in my life, but I don't know that I would call any of them a miracle.
zipperhead
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Re: Do you believe in miracles? Re: Re: Do you believe in miracles? -- zip Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Cal ®
06/08/2002, 11:33:05
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You're right. I only wanted to say that there are fewer people who go looking for miracles. Or witches, or fairies or demons. This is directly a result of the scientific process which has "proven" so many things that were previously ascribed to the supernatural. And if there are fewer people who are prepared to explain something as "miraculous", then there are fewer miracles to talk about. Are you saying you didn't mean to suggest our focus on what's "wrong" is key to our contemporary disbelief in miracles? I can't tell.
In any case, the expectation that there are demons, witches, invisible ancestors or deities, etc., that might visit misfortune on us if we disobey or do something wrong has typically come together with the expectation of beneficent supernatural presences. It comes as a package.
And fear of of possible calamities and punishments coming from supernatural agents has often come to be a central preoccupation of a mind inclined to belief in these sorts of beings. This has often meant an exaggerated sense of the dangers of others who don't show proper behavior with regard to the supernatural beings and their designs on us.
One could argue, however, that the true miracles got obscured by and eventually dismissed with the other "miracles" that were never miracles in the first place. In other words, a) the belief that someone's cancer receded because of the miraculous intervention of God b)went away at the same rate as c) the belief a cat could draw the breath out of a baby. [a/b=c/b, equals fewer witnessed miracles] New information about cancer, asphyxiation and a plethora of other scientific facts made us question everything we had considered to be a result of supernatural effects within our world. Does any of that make sense?
I think I follow. In having discovered so much chaff we've dismissed the wheat too. The real miracles have come to be discredited through guilt-by-association with the discredited miracles, which are admittedly legion now that science and other forms of solid evidential reasoning have taken hold in our culture. In the process less people come into contact with the genuinely miraculous, even second- or third-hand, and it becomes easier to disbelieve in miracles tout court. Am I in the ballpark?
It is true that our personalities have little effect on whether we should believe in miracles, but our personalities for the most part determine whether we do believe in miracles. I contend that it is a matter of desire to expect miracles to be possible. Some people want them, some people can do without them.
Well, I guess we agree. If we're more disposed to believe that something miraculous will happen then, well, we're more likely to construe our experiences supernaturally and, even more, take at face value the supernatural experiences that accord with our own view of the nature of the supernatural. E.g., a Christian of a certain sort will more likely construe certain experiences as manifestations of demons than, say, I would. (In fact, that goes for me in my own life. I experienced demonic presences when I was young that I now think mistaken, though the rest of my family would believe what I now reject.)
But my point was that whether we're disposed by personality and cultural upbringing to expect miracles is really independent of the question of whether belief in miracles is justified. I'm curious why you think we should believe in miracles and in the miraculous independent of whether we're predisposed to believe in them.
This worldwide prevalence of the belief in miracles points to something. You can draw your own conclusions. But in the most technologically advanced society, we still have dozens, if not hundreds of people seeing, hearing, being healed by angels. We just don't talk about it because most people are told over and over that only crackpots believe in miracles. No one wants to be a crackpot. So, the stories are told with sincerity only in the closest circles. As the stories get outside of that circle, the "mircale" is relegated to the position of "coincidence" for mass consumption.
Again, this just means that the belief in the miraculous or supernatural is something that persists in humans to some degree even where features of the cultural context may prove inhospitable to these beliefs. The same goes for disbelief in evolution or for belief in alternative medical treatments such as homeopathy and others. Well-organized modes of inquiry have arisen that place creationism and forms of holistic medicine in question. But the persistence of creationist belief or pro-homeopathic groups doesn't do much to lend credence to creationism or homeopathy.
I've had plenty of strange events and sudden, fortuitous turns in my life, but I don't know that I would call any of them a miracle.
Perhaps you will. ;)
This reminds
zipperhead
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Or some truly important miracles . . . Re: A Miraculous God -- Logan Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Cal ®
05/29/2002, 11:00:08
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Such as letting manna rain down in the midst of famines, or carrying Jews off to safe havens as their Nazi persecutors seek to take them to concentration camps.
Modified by Cal at Thu, May 30, 2002, 03:50:26
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There's plenty-o-Jesus to go around! Re: Are Catholics Cannibals? -- shooter Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Martin ®
05/27/2002, 05:35:18
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Just take a look at the size of that guy! Plenty of that to go around, dontcha think? Just ask the priest at the counter to SuperSize it...
- Martin
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For the record... Re: Are Catholics Cannibals? -- shooter Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Martin ®
05/27/2002, 10:55:30
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I just want to make it clear that my weak attempts at off-color humor (which I am confident Logan will report were unbearably unfunny and lame, as he's done in the past about things I said that weren't even intended to be funny) consituted a kind of "ask a stupid question, get a stupid answer" thing. It wasn't my intent to offend any Catholics or other Christians, but merely to chastize shooter's post.
- Martin
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As a practicing Roman Catholic... Re: For the record... -- Martin Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Barbarian ®
05/27/2002, 11:08:12
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...I'm not offended. If God can't take a joke, then He's not God. Heck, I think He put us here to see if we could take a joke.
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Life as a joke Re: As a practicing Roman Catholic... -- Barbarian Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Alf Omega ®
05/27/2002, 11:14:28
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Now that's the most compelling case for a purposeful creation I have heard recently. Hey, if the punchline is funny enough, maybe I could believe again! "Three gods walk into a bar, but they only order one drink...."
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Re: As a practicing Roman Catholic... Re: As a practicing Roman Catholic... -- Barbarian Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Martin ®
05/27/2002, 11:47:58
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Dear Pat! I've been gushing about the great people here rather a lot lately, and I must say that I'm very pleased you've popped in so that I can direct some of it your way...
As I have said so many times before that I imagine you're both embarrassed and bored to the teeth of it, I think you're one of the most remarkably wise, smart, friendly, and just downright likable people it has been our pleasure to know around here!
In my opinion, there are few better indications of outstanding mental and emotional health than the ability to take a joke -- even on matters of such personal importance as faith and religion -- and be good natured about it and share in the joke.
Recently, we've been discussing the intermittent lulls in the activity on this board and lamenting either the total absence or too rare appearance of some of our dearly beloved contributors. I hope you know that you're one of them!
Your friend and admirer,- Martin
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A hearty AMEN to that!! Re: Re: As a practicing Roman Catholic... -- Martin Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Gunnar ®
05/27/2002, 16:49:30
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Re: A hearty AMEN to that!! Re: A hearty AMEN to that!! -- Gunnar Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Jersey Girl ®
05/27/2002, 17:01:11
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Rubbing elbows with the SB's again have you? ;)
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Re: A hearty AMEN to that!! Re: Re: A hearty AMEN to that!! -- Jersey Girl Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Gunnar ®
05/27/2002, 17:32:41
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"Rubbing elbows with the SB's again have you? ;)"
Just you, Vicki!
Gunnar
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Re: A hearty AMEN to that!! Re: Re: A hearty AMEN to that!! -- Gunnar Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Jersey Girl ®
05/28/2002, 02:29:24
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See Gunnar, it doesn't hurt you does it? Stick around I'll have you tanked up on coffee before you know it! LOL Gunnar!!! LOL!!! These are very fine days indeed!
Vicki
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Re: For the record... Re: For the record... -- Martin Top of thread Archive
Posted by: rdl ®
05/28/2002, 11:51:46
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...for the record...I just want to say that I, for one, throughly enjoy your humor (off-color or otherwise). I'm still getting milage out of visions of you clawing you way out of the abyss to try and warn me.
:-)
rdl
Modified by rdl at Tue, May 28, 2002, 11:53:12
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Thanks, rdl!! Re: Re: For the record... -- rdl Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Martin ®
05/29/2002, 18:26:51
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It's great to know my attempts at humor, such as they are, don't bomb out in everyone's mind, Logan's insults notwithstanding! There's nothing like an appreciative audience. Thank you most kindly!
I wish I could think of something witty to say, but my efforts in this thread have probably tapped me out completely for another month or two...
Yours,- Martin
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