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God's right to demand obedience Re: #6703 -- Alan Boycott Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Alf Omega ®
05/20/2002, 21:34:36
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I will gladly comply with a personally delivered injunction, which should be a trivial task for an omnipotent being. He knows where to find me.
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Why? Re: #6711 -- Alan Boycott Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Alf Omega ®
05/20/2002, 23:18:58
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Originally this was a "no text" reply to Alan Boycott's message, which said, "Yes, but he wants you to find him."
Modified by Alf Omega at Tue, May 21, 2002, 21:53:49
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Boycott Re: Why? -- Alf Omega Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Alf Omega ®
05/21/2002, 21:18:42
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Looks like Alan Boycott is boycotting his own posts!
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Re: Boycott Re: Boycott -- Alf Omega Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Gunnar ®
05/22/2002, 09:07:33
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Maybe he suddenly realized the inherent self-contradiction and silliness of attempting to use reason to argue against reliance on evidence and reason, and was sufficiently embarrassed by that realization to remove all his posts.
Gunnar
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Yeah right! Hanging the Swastika in church to Re: #6703 -- Alan Boycott Top of thread Archive
Posted by: jesse ®
05/20/2002, 23:28:37
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avoid persecution in Germany during WW II.
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IS THIS GUY/POST GOOOONNNNNEEEE? NT Re: Yeah right! Hanging the Swastika in church to -- jesse Top of thread Archive
Posted by: jesse ®
05/22/2002, 05:35:15
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filler
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Your ideas are dangerous! Re: #6703 -- Alan Boycott Top of thread Archive
Posted by: The Vines ®
05/20/2002, 23:49:55
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The Talmage idea you echo of the only two legittimate claims to authority are LDS and RC is just symptom of the narrow view with which you look at the issue.
Where did this authority come from? Revelation. How does revelation come? Through subjective channels in human consciousness. What validates one revelation over another? Opinion and influence.
The fact that you believe that these two claims are the only two legittimate ones is born of the cultural idea that you have accepted: that priesthood authority came from God to man and should continue by passing from one man to another. This transmission insures that there be dependence on a hierarchal structure, and ensures power to the organization, whatever the latter may be...
In reality, what you must demonstrate is that authority from God to act as exclusive representatives is possible. The only proof that the individuals (in this case J. Smith and O. Cowdery) offer is their subjective religious experience, the truth of which they cannot even confirm to themselves, and which could rather be a halucination of sorts... They have faith what they experienced was real (giving the benefit of the doubt and excluding fraud), as you have faith that what they experienced was real.
You have a witness through your own personal subjective religious experiences that what JS and OC said was true, just as others have similar experiences proving they were false.
In essence your claim of earthly/political/ecclesiastic/divine authority (because that is what it boils down to) is based on a non-verifiable religious experience. This belief is profoundly linked to the theological system that gives meaning to your experiences. All you need to do is change the belief system and the experiences will now confirm something completely different.
The problem I have with your idea is that since the power structure claims to descend from the hands of God, it implicity acts in his name, a validation of its authority to act, and control, and to exact punishment for disobedience. It dictates law in the name of God when its claim of authority is based on an experience as subjective as that of any common man having a religious experience. The only difference is the persuasive nature of the belief system and its representatives. There is no validity to exclusive authority if the very experience bestowing the authority is not also exclusive, not to mention verifiable. The only authority any Church has is the authority YOU give it through your belief.
If God truly exists and is just, by the standard of justice he has revealed, he must reveal himself to all people, which is an automatic conferral of authority to the individual. The belief that an organization can represent him is as subjective a claim as the very nature of revelation.
If God asked you through the prophet to fly a jet liner into the Empire State Building would you do it?
If your answer is "he wouldn't ask you" then you are ignorant of the facts contained in the very scriptures you mention, where prophets have commanded the slaying of entire populations supposedly in the name of God. The only answer you can give is "Yes" if you claim that this man is a full representative of God dictating God's will to humans, as you seem to imply.
Do you believe that your personal religious experience can override a command from a Prophet?
If your answer is yes, then you do not believe in his authority but rather you give him authority by accepting his commands as you feel they are righteous and in harmony with what YOU percieve is from God. This would not be obedience to God's prophets, but to what God tells you. The fact that at times the source of God's communication to you is through another man is irrelevant, it still must meet your divinely inspired approval. You are the ultimate authority through your subjective perception of God's will.
If your answer is no then you are absolutely obedient to the Prophet and accept his authority above your moral judgement. In which case you are a real menace to society.
TV
Modified by The Vines at Tue, May 21, 2002, 00:08:40
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Re: Your ideas are dangerous! Re: Your ideas are dangerous! -- The Vines Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Seeker ®
05/21/2002, 02:04:20
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I agree with Vines....to a degree. An open mind will ponder all claims to truth (whether they are true or not) and will weigh the possibility thereof. Once we learn that one way is correct, and that another is not, what do we base our knowledge on? We cannot force any other man to believe one way or another. Who are we (as human) to say what is truth and what is lie? What have we to base those claims on? Our experience. Our knowledge. Our faith and belief. Some men choose to act on their hearts and feelings to get answers. Others rely on their eyes, and their hands. The truth is, that both of these can decieve you! The difference is this....he who is based on thoughts and feelings has nothing to prove his belief while he who is based on hard fact and visible/tangible items can show you the same things he has seen. We must learn to act on them both, and we must also learn not to contradict ourselves.
I´m sure that all of us have seen the stars. But who has ever visited one? Anyone who believes that stars are really there are basing that on just their eyes. Some of you might say that there are scientists who have sent up instuments to confirm the existence thereof. But unless you are one of those scientists, then you are just the same as those who base their beliefs on a prophet. The world sustains scientists as revelators of knowledge because their "truth" is based on hard facts and visible/tangible things. Where as christians sustain their leaders (prophets) as revelators of knowledge because their "truth" is based on thoughts and feelings. I would encourage you all to base your beliefs on both of these!
Vines mentioned what we would do if we were commanded by a prophet to destroy. How many willing men were there that followed the command of a president when he said to destroy? The US sent out their army to cause a greater destruction than the first. Why? because of what they beleived to be true! How many of us would follow the words of the President without second thought? It should be the same way with the men that we say are sent of G-d. But this all comes back around to knowing them by their fruits! It is evil to destroy, but is it evil to destroy by defense? Are you sinning if you do not believe you are?
Truth is found in science and technology and fact! It is also found in hearts and thoughts and sometimes plain old gut feelings! If you say that it is false because it has no proof, then you deny the power of the HG!
Seek that which is hidden, not that which is found!
-The Seeker-
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Ahi Ahi Ahi Re: Re: Your ideas are dangerous! -- Seeker Top of thread Archive
Posted by: The Vines ®
05/21/2002, 02:41:23
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Vines mentioned what we would do if we were commanded by a prophet to destroy. How many willing men were there that followed the command of a president when he said to destroy? The US sent out their army to cause a greater destruction than the first. Why? because of what they beleived to be true! How many of us would follow the words of the President without second thought? It should be the same way with the men that we say are sent of G-d. But this all comes back around to knowing them by their fruits! It is evil to destroy, but is it evil to destroy by defense? Are you sinning if you do not believe you are?
What makes you believe that the command of war issued by a President is necessarily good or based on anything we could define as righteous? True there are instances in which one should defend his nation and the freedom we believe in from aggression, but does this hold true for religious leaders?
Our national leaders are chosen by the people and get their authority from the people who support them and keep them in power. Is this the case for religious leaders? Usually the latter claim their authority comes from God and they respond not to the people but to God. Obviously their conviction of being called of God is either based on fraud, or on a subjective and common religious experience. Why would this confer any authority? It does only if the faith of the followers gives it.
For you to say that there is an analogy between a national leader calling people to war and a religious leader doing the same is as dangerous as it gets.
A question for you:
If a true prophet of God, according to your standard of true prophet, told you to fly a plane into the Empire State Building would you do it?
TV
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calm down Re: Ahi Ahi Ahi -- The Vines Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Seeker ®
05/21/2002, 03:18:51
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I think you misunderstood Vines. The point I was getting at is much of what you said....that the people put the president where he is....in other words, they sustain him and support him, believing that he will make good descisions! The same is with a prophet...if you do not sustain him, why are you following him? I was not argueing with you in this point, and I am not sure why you were led to believe that I was.
In answer to your question....If I sustained a man as a prophet who then told me to fly a plane into the Empire State Building, then yes, I would
Now a question for you:
If the President of the United States told you to fly an airplane into the Empire State Building would you do it?
-The Seeker-
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Re: calm down Re: calm down -- Seeker Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Wayne Wilson ®
05/21/2002, 03:47:34
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You would fly an airplane into the Empire state Building if a prophet told you to? Even if it means killing thousands of people, who maybe did nothing wrong or even beleive in the same god you do?
Would you question wether that prophet had taken his meds?
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Nice try Re: Re: calm down -- Wayne Wilson Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Seeker ®
05/21/2002, 04:28:25
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I am not blind my friend.....I will not be caught in your evil designs to catch me in my words! Nevertheless, I suspected that someone would have asked me this very question. For that reason, I ended my post with another question. I encourage you to ask that question to yourself.
But if you insist on saying no to the question, then I have this to say to you, that you do not trust the wisdom of the human mind. There are foolish people, that is clear; but there are wise people as well, that is not so clear! If you wish to say that you cannot trust a man based on his previous actions coupled with the feelings you have toward him, then you cannot trust yourself and the descisions you make. And sorry is the man who cannot trust himself!
-The Seeker-
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Wrong question??? Re: Nice try -- Seeker Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Wayne Wilson ®
05/21/2002, 05:18:56
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The mind is tricky, I do not always trust my own mind because it is undisciplined and is driven by desire. Sometimes the consequences of those desires will bring peace to myself and my family. Other times I can see that the fruits of my actions cause suffering to myself and others.
My goal is to be able to determine what actions will bring peace and what actions will not.
If your actions harm no body than do it.
It is all about cause and effect.
Wayne
Modified by Wayne Wilson at Tue, May 21, 2002, 06:16:52
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What EVIL rubbish!!! Re: Nice try -- Seeker Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Martin ®
05/22/2002, 13:48:49
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Seeker, To trust yourself is to doubt the claims of authority from others!
It is only complete and utter self-DISTRUST that would make you so gullible as to follow the instructions of someone you imagined was a prophet into comitting mass murder! It is the very fact that this "prophet" asked you to kill people that should convince you that he was obviously NOT a prophet!
You are the most terrifying, evil, and recklessly dangerous person with whom I have ever personally interacted! You are virtually morally equivalent to all the people who volunteered (but were not chosen) to attack the World Trade Towers!
How can you live with yourself?
- Martin
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Answer: Seeker you need to look better at this! Re: calm down -- Seeker Top of thread Archive
Posted by: The Vines ®
05/21/2002, 05:16:20
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You ask:
If the President of the United States told you to fly an airplane into the Empire State Building would you do it?
A: Absolutely not. I would never do anything anyone told me to do if this did not conform with my personal understanding of what is right and wrong, of course this is my intention, in practice I am more than likely to not be consistent with my self-imposed conscious guideline because of personal weakness.
Your answer:
In answer to your question....If I sustained a man as a prophet who then told me to fly a plane into the Empire State Building, then yes, I would.
...is evil to me. You would follow a man's instructions to do something evil just because you have some personal spiritual experience confirming to you that this man is sent of God! What difference is their between you and a muslim terrorist?
My question is not a set up, just a tool. You both follow what you believe to be the instructions of god... why are your spiritual experiences better than their's? What makes you think their experience are any less valid, or even substantially different than your's? If you looked into the issue more you would find that spiritual experiences are analogous across the cultural board, what differs is the way people interpret and rationalize these, based on their religious perspective.
If you would follow a prophet even when this is against your conscience then you do not believe your conscience comes from God. So how do you know what is right and wrong if God doesn't reveal it to you through your conscience? The contradictions of your belief system are so profound and potentially harming to you and society that you should step back and really take a look "from the outside."
I don't want you to think I am attacking you. I really think your belief system is dangerous. It relinquishes your God given gift of conscience to another man.
Question: If you think that your conscience can lead you astray, what makes you believe that your ability to discern between a true or false prophet is any better?
Yet, you would rather follow a Prophet than your conscience if these were in contrast. Why? Because you trust God more than your ability to judge...? Nonesense! If you cannot understand good from bad, then you cannot understand true prophet from false one. My hope: follow your conscience!
A pointer specific for you...
...you know well how many people have let their children die because of a belief that transfusions are against Jehovah's will... What does conscience say to you?
What do you say about those who killed and plundered under directions of the Pope, or other religious leaders?
Do you think Joshua of the Old Testament was better just because he is part of the canonical literature of the Bible?
If your answer to this last question is yes, then I think it is because you believe that the surrounding myths about what Joshua did convince you that he was directed by God. Of course if you believe the myth that by yelling the walls of Jericho fell, then that is enough to convince you that it is OK that they then killed men, women, children, and animls too...
Personally I believe that even if the walls had really fallen, a righteous man should not have killed innocent children in that battle... simply because I don't believe that such a power could have come from a true and righteous God since this same God then commanded to do something evil. Of course the Bible myths are ad-hoc propaganda for hierarchical religious systems... and I doubt the majority are objectively true historical events (as far as the supernatural stuff goes).
I think you have to think harder and seek deeper. I have walked this path, and I know where you are coming from! You must seek in your conscience first. God cannot lie if he exists. He must always be consistent with his words. If you look deep you will find that many scriptural episodes are not God inspired acts... and many myths contained in the scriptures are based on evil tribal events that had nothing to do with God, and the accounts of supernatural events are either made up to bolster the power structure that was presenting them, or gross exagerations... God cannot be a liar and self-contradictory being.
Since, I am called to choose to have faith, then I must also be equipped with the ability to discern truth from error. This very quality will guide you and me to understand if a belief is true or flawed, but we must have the courage to accept what we find, even if it means completely overturning long held beliefs.
Just remember that spiritual experiences occur across the board in all cultures and even in the absence of religion. They are the same type of experience. The differences are in the way people rationalize the experience and interpret it. They do this based on their religious ideology or culture. Hence, the experience per se cannot stand as a valid confirmation of the theology because the theology determines the interpretation of the experience. You must follow your instinctual feelings of right and wrong. I believe nature has equipped us with a real ability to judge what is fair, just, good, and useful for ourselves and society. We must judge the theology and the associated morality of it to see if it is good. I believe that if we believe in love, our conscience will yield similar results
TV
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Stop Reading my Mind Re: Answer: Seeker you need to look better at this! -- The Vines Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Wayne Wilson ®
05/21/2002, 05:21:32
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!
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God's bona fides Re: Answer: Seeker you need to look better at this! -- The Vines Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Alf Omega ®
05/21/2002, 05:34:23
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God cannot lie if he exists. He must always be consistent with his words. How do you know that God is truthful, or even good? Is there something about omnipotence that requires a deity to behave himself? If there is a God, how do we know that he isn't a malevolent, capricious, adolescent monster who would torture some of his creatures for eternity?
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Re: God's bona fides Re: God's bona fides -- Alf Omega Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Lynn ®
05/21/2002, 14:49:46
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Alf, you asked,"If there is a God, how do we know that he isn't a malevolent, capricious, adolescent monster who would torture some of his creatures for eternity?
(Jerimiah 19:3- ) "Hear the word of The Lord, you men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem! Thus says the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel; "Behold, I am bringing disaster upon this place, such that the ears of everyone who ears of it will tingle, because they have forsaken me, and have desecrated this place by offering sacrifices to other gods whom neither they nor their fathers have known and because the kings of Judah have filled this place with the blood of innocent persons and have built high places to the Baal, a thing in which I never commanded, nor spoke of, nor did it enter my mind."(Deut. 18:10) "There should not be found in you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, "
(2 Kings 21:6) King Manasseh, during his reign sacrificed his own son, making him pass through the fire, to a false God, "And he went on to build altars to all the army of the heavens in two courtyards of the house of Jehovah. And he made his own son pass through the fire, and he practiced majic and looked for omens and made spirit mediums and professional foretellers of events. He did on a large scale what was bad in Jehovah's eyes to offend him.".
God is not the one who inspired the 'hell fire doctrine, obviouly
Lynn
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The point remains Re: Re: God's bona fides -- Lynn Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Alf Omega ®
05/21/2002, 21:33:58
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How do you know God is telling you the truth? All you know about him is what he has been willing to tell you. How do you know he's not lying?
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Re: The point remains Re: The point remains -- Alf Omega Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Lynn ®
05/23/2002, 06:45:22
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How do I know God is not lying?
I trust his word. He has given us all a measure of faith. (Romans 12:3)
Some have alot of faith, while others have faith the size of a mustard seed. (Matt. 17:20) And (Titus 1:1-2) says," Paul, a slave of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to arouse faith in those whom God has chosen, and the comprehension of accurate knowledge of the truth which accords with godly devotion upon the basis of a hope of the ever lasting life which God, who 'cannot lie' promised before times long lasting, "see also (Heb. 6:18) (1 John 2:21and 2:27)
Yet, the Scriptures tell us that Satan is the liar and the Father of the lie. this script. can be found in ( John 8:44)
(2 Tim. 3:16) "All scripture is divinely inspired and useful in teaching, in reproof, in correcting faults, and in training in uprightness so that the man of God will be adequate and equipped for any good work,"
God's people had been warned about false prophets who would act like wolves and would rob, steal and plunder. In the book of Titus, this scripure aptly describes this sort of pretense. (Titus 1:10) "For there are many unruly men, profitless talkers, and deceivers of the mind, especially those men who adhere to the circumcision. It is necessary to shut the mouths of these as these very men keep on subverting entire households by 'teaching' things they ought not for the 'sake of dishonest gain.
You see, there are many doors, but only one true door.
Christ said,"Most truly say to you, I am the door of the sheep. ALl those that have come in place of me are thieves and plunderers; but the sheep have not listened to them. I am the door; whoever enters through me will be saved, and he will go in and out and find pasturage. The thief does not come unless it is to steal and slay and destroy. I have come that they might have life and might have it in abundance. " (verse 12) "The hired man, who is no shepherd and to whom the sheep do not belong as his own, beholds the wolf coming and abandons the sheep and flees and the wolf snatches them and scatters them because he is a hired man and does not care for the sheep.. I am the fine shepherd, and I know my sheep and my sheep know me, just as the Father knows me and I know the Father;and I surrender my soul in behalf of the sheep. And I have other sheep which are not of this fold, those also I must bring, and THEY WILL LISTEN TO MY VOICE (not thewolves) and they will become one flock one shepherd."
Who's voice do we choose to listen to? Christ's or presumpteous men who have claimed Christ has already appointed them before he has actually come. We know anyone who claims power before he comes is a liar. Check our Revelations 22:12, "Look! I come quickly and the reward I give is with me, to render to each one as his work is.
No one has received their reward of life or death yet, for have we seen anyone arrayed in glory? Have we seen any rewards given out? Have the nations began beating themselves with grief because of him yet? Do they believe he has come?
OF course not!!!! unless a false prophet tells you he has, invisibly.
'Rev. 22:14)"Happy are those who wash their robes that the authority to go tothe trees of life may be theirs and that they may gain entrance into the city by it's gates. Outside are the dogs and those whopractice spiritism and the fornicators and the murderers and the idolaters and everyone liking and carrying on a lie."
Let anyone hearing say COME!
That my friend can be you and I. If we are calling others to Christ, then we are the bride of Christ.
Let the peace of God be with the Holy Ones.
Lynn
Modified by Lynn at Sun, May 26, 2002, 12:38:12
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Re: The point remains Re: Re: The point remains -- Lynn Top of thread Archive
Posted by: diehl ®
05/24/2002, 11:11:39
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Isn't an outside observer needed to determine a God's honetsty... I mean anyone can write a book, claim to be sent from a higher being and then get people to follow it. But how can one tell that any of it's true? If the book says that it is true, what meaning does it have?
I can say:
"I am omnipotent and perfect. I speak the truth. For I am a god and you should not question my absolte authority, as I forbid it. To question me is wrong and in doing to you deny the Truth that I have created."
I think we'll both agree that this is utter BS (if it isn't then well I wouldn't mind...j/k). But how can we prove that any religous text isn't BS as well? Also if a God can lie about one thing, why not all. Also if this god is truely allpowerful why would it be obligated to anything?
Now my example is grossly overdone, but still challenges this point.
So using the Bible to validate its validty is pointless, it proves nothing.
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Re: The point remains Re: Re: The point remains -- diehl Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Lynn ®
05/26/2002, 12:16:55
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Does not life around you, the singing birds, the growth of a seed, a tiny seed which becomes a tall tree, the design in a flower, in a snowflake, who taught the wasp to make paper? The constuction of a beaver? Or the Ant to build a cone, a blind bat to find it's way home? Who instructed the flying geese when to go south? North? To fly in a v pattern? Who put this knowledge in their minds? And who,if you can tell me, designed mankind?
The miracle of birth.
and
All the beauty of this wonderous earth?
Modified by Lynn at Sun, May 26, 2002, 12:21:35
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Re: God's bona fides Re: Re: God's bona fides -- Lynn Top of thread Archive
Posted by: rpcman ®
05/22/2002, 01:47:48
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If you are going to pick only the good stuff out of the Bible and ignore all the rotten stuff, claiming it wasn't inspired by God, why not just become a secular humanist?
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Re: God's bona fides Re: God's bona fides -- Alf Omega Top of thread Archive
Posted by: The Vines ®
05/22/2002, 01:59:35
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You are absolutely right. The objective existence of a god does not require it to be good, nor does omnipotence necessarily imply "goodness." In fact my hunch is that a subjective concept such as "goodness" probably doesn't apply in the realm of omniscience and omnipotence, otherwise there must be specific goals or executive directives this omnipotent being must follow, which practically would practically limit the omnipotence.
For example the LDS God cannot lie nor do evil because otherwise he will cease to be God. This means that his omnipotence is constrained by "moral-type" law, that if violated will end the ability to be omnipotent. This is obviously a limited omnipotence in that it can end. God can do everything, except maintain his omnipotence under any circumstance... He can loose it in consequence to certain choices.
In any case, we have no proof of a God. But we do have theological systems "describing" him. I am pointing out the necessity for these to be internally consistent: definitions must be reflected in action.
TV
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When did I say I believed? Re: Answer: Seeker you need to look better at this! -- The Vines Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Seeker ®
05/21/2002, 05:54:03
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Vines,
I first want to thank you for the manner in which you replied....it was simple and honest. I was not offended in any way. But I am a little disheartened that you are not understanding my real message!
First off, I said that IF I sustained a man as a prophet....I never said that I did!
Secondly, are you telling me that there is no possible reason why the Lord would want a building to be destroyed? Maybe I should have asked the question like this: If the Lord came to you and you knew it was Him, and He then commanded you to fly a plane as we have discussed, THEN would you do it?
The key that you yourself said was...
If your answer is "he wouldn't ask you" then you are ignorant of the facts contained in the very scriptures you mention, where prophets have commanded the slaying of entire populations supposedly in the name of God.
IF my conscience tells me to listen to and follow this prophet, then I should remember that.
Do you consider it rightoues for Abraham to kill his son? The Lord tries His people to see if they are truely willing to obey....even when it means doing something that doesnt seem right to us!
Another thought to consider....where is the punishment in death? Many people see it as a release! I am aware that there are people who do not believe in a life after death, and for them, there still is no punishment in death because how can you punish that which doesn´t exist?
I truely wonder what your intentions are because I have caught quite a number of you condradicting yourselves. I´m not accusing you (Vines) of this, because I understand that you are offering the antagonist´s point of view, but you should understand when someone else further defends your point of view because by the looks of your posts, I would be inclined to believe that you don´t sumbit yourself to your above quote. And if you don´t submit to your own words, what good is your conscience.
I don´t know how you can say that you know where I am coming from, because I have not given any inclination as to where I am coming from! As far as I know, I have given very little of my own beliefs, but have spent most my time discussing the beliefs of others. If I am wrong, please to correct me. But I urge you to be careful in what you quote as being my own beliefs.....here is a hint: anything with the words "I believe..." If I have condradicted myself, then please, point it out to me, and I will gladly step back and stop posting! Otherwise, I encourage you to listen.
-The Seeker-
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OK then... Re: When did I say I believed? -- Seeker Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Craig C. ®
05/21/2002, 07:04:20
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Gameplayer, Why don't you just say what you believe? Are you too ashamed or too timid to state your beliefs? Or are you simply playing a game?
It is tiresome watching you string people along then whine that they are not listening to you after they have made reasonable assumptions about your beliefs based on the assertions in your posts.
Craig
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Re: OK then... Re: OK then... -- Craig C. Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Jersey Girl ®
05/21/2002, 13:53:37
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Craig,
I haven't read all of the posts here. Are you trying to find out if he is a believer? He is.
Vicki
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Re: OK then... Re: Re: OK then... -- Jersey Girl Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Craig C. ®
05/21/2002, 21:49:53
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Hi Vicki, I haven't read all of the posts here.
Read his posts then tell me what he believes. He teases by suggesting that the ideas that he posts may not be what he actually believes.
Are you trying to find out if he is a believer? He is.
I can make the argument that we are all are believers - it's a question of exactly what we believe and the labels we choose to use to name what we believe. I believe in evolution as creator of all living things, including our brains and minds. If you decide to give the name "God" to this creative force then I believe in God.Best wishes,
Craig
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Best Guess Re: Re: OK then... -- Craig C. Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Jersey Girl ®
05/22/2002, 04:08:45
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Hi Craig!
His profile says he believes in God. His post suggest that he is LDS trying to persuade or provoke people into considering the Living Prophet as divine authority. Perhaps he is afraid to state what he believes because he fears the backlash it will bring as he is outnumbered here. Hmmm..never stopped me! ;)
The Bible instructs us to always be ready to give an answer as to where our hope lies. I would rather answer when questioned rather than to be thought deceitful or coy. Maybe Seeker is unsure or afraid. Whichever it is, he could choose honesty. But then again my perspective is biased as I prefer to keep my integrity intact even if I stumble while doing so. Of course you yourself have seen no empirical evidence of this so you'll just have to believe me! LOL!
Vicki
Modified by Jersey Girl at Wed, May 22, 2002, 04:19:04
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Question Seeker? Re: When did I say I believed? -- Seeker Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Jersey Girl ®
05/21/2002, 14:01:21
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If the Lord wanted a building destroyed do you suppose he would need a plane to do it? What "prophet" are you speaking of Seeker? The Living Prophet of the LDS church? The Saints claim to follow Christ do they not? They claim to accept the Bible as scripture do they not? There IS no Biblical support for the LDS concept of the Living Prophet!
Vicki
Modified by Jersey Girl at Tue, May 21, 2002, 14:03:59
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Good point, Vicki. Re: Question Seeker? -- Jersey Girl Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Gunnar ®
05/21/2002, 17:11:40
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Any terrorists or mass murderers can falsely claim, and even believe that God commanded or at least approved of their actions. Many such have claimed precisely that. This causes me (at least) to assign no credibility whatsoever to anyone who makes such claims. In my view, if God exists and wants to accomplish something as drastic as that, He should not delegate the responsibility to mere mortals, because their motives in carrying it out and claiming divine approval for it would inevitably be highly suspect. Surely God has the power and wisdom to figure out a way to accomplish it in such a way that it could not be reasonably be attributed to selfishly and cruelly motivated human action.
Gunnar
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Re: Good point, Gunnar Re: Good point, Vicki. -- Gunnar Top of thread Archive
Posted by: rdl ®
05/21/2002, 19:04:08
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IF (and please note the big qualifying "if") God wanted to do away with something or someone, S/He has plenty of means at his/her disposal without making use of mere mortals. Hurricanes, floods, tornados, fires caused by lightening, earthquakes and a host of other natural events come to mind.
rdl
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Right! Re: Good point, Vicki. -- Gunnar Top of thread Archive
Posted by: The Vines ®
05/22/2002, 13:42:39
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Right! If he can send a flood that can cover the highest mountain tops by a few meters then he should be able to shake down a building too...
TV
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Thank You Re: When did I say I believed? -- Seeker Top of thread Archive
Posted by: The Vines ®
05/22/2002, 02:11:34
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I appreciate your post very much Seeker. I was under the impression that you were a believer. Perhaps I believe I have confused you with Lynn. I apologize... I do recall your stating that you choce not to reveal your beliefs now...
As to your question:
Secondly, are you telling me that there is no possible reason why the Lord would want a building to be destroyed? Maybe I should have asked the question like this: If the Lord came to you and you knew it was Him, and He then commanded you to fly a plane as we have discussed, THEN would you do it?
My answers are that NO I don't think God would ask you to destroy a building with people in it. I am convinced this represents a contradiction of God's character as defined by Christian theology. If the Lord came to me and asked me to do this and I knew it was him, would I do it? Absolutely not! If he asked me to sacrifice my child like Abraham would I do it? Absolutely not. Do I feel this would mean that I am evil? Abslolutely not. My concept of evil is not determined by God, but what I understand to be right and wrong. If God inspires my conscience then he shouldn't go against his inspiration. If he doesn't inspire my conscience then he doesn't deserve my obedience, nor does he have the right to exact punishment justly if I do not obey.
As to my observations on the dangers of obedience, they stand, and I reiterate my further questions that I would like you to ask yourself... you don't necessarily have to answer them, but I would like you to ask yourself.
TV
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Re: Thank You Re: Thank You -- The Vines Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Lynn ®
05/26/2002, 12:33:51
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This is the beauty of Yahweh's Son, he fulfilled the Old Law. replacing it with the law of Love. His Father's will is for us to love our neighbor and even love those who we'd believe are our enemies. Now we know......that if a leader were to expect their followers to break this Law of Love, then we would then realize this individual is an imposter. He is not from Christ, and he is not from God. We know God, our heavenly Father, is Love.
Lynn
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Re: calm down Re: calm down -- Seeker Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Wayne Wilson ®
05/21/2002, 06:15:42
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I obviously did not ask the right question.
Would you sustain a man as prophet who would ask you to do such a thing?And if a prophet you previously sustained asked you do such a thing would you question the command?
The President is elected by the majority, only the majority, that does not mean everyone elected him. Infact it is the duty of citizens to dissent, if the President does or says something questionable.
wayne
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