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Me first Re: #6417 -- Alan Boycott Top of thread Archive
Posted by: The Vines ®
05/13/2002, 11:10:09
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Dear Sir:
I am LDS, I am a returned missionary, I have had numerous religious experiences and testimonies, and I must say: SO WHAT!
What makes you believe that having a subjective religious experience validates anything objectively? You and every other believer in this world are making a choice to believe in something you cannot demonstrate to be true. You cannot even demostrate it to be true to yourself. How do you know that your religious experiences are not simply the manifestation of inherited cognitive adaptations and their conjunction with the peculiar religious culture you are immersed in? You don't know. But you follow your gut and you have faith that what you perceive is objectively true notwithstanding the possibilities that you could be wrong.
Fine. Do you find in your conscience that this is sufficient a reason to justify the territoriality, division, and demarcations religious organization creates? Remember sir that Church does not simply mean theology, it is also social structure, and concentration of power. Have you thought out profoundly the implications of what it means to be LDS, or even Christian, in view of the theological implications and the social impact derived from concepts such as "chosen, foreordained, priesthood authority, sin, kingdom, peculiar people, great and noble, elect,etc..."
Do you care that if your subjective religious experiences are nothing more than workings of your brain, you are feeding this kind of rhetoric into society? I did care and reflecting on this constantly in order to follow my conscience has brought me to doubt LDS theology and Christianity in general, even though I have strong experiences that have conditioned me profoundly, yet for reasons pertaining to the very consience that has lead me into those religious experiences I feel evermore detached from them.
If in fact God exists, I doubt profoundly that it matters at all even if Joseph Smith had actually been called of him, because I am sure that if that were the case then he's probably called many others too .... The LDS Church would be the only true and living Church (D&C) only for those to whom it would be beneficial in terms of personal progress....
But I must say that it seems more likely to me that if God would exist, he would first of all instruct people to not form Churches, but to simply teach principles, and if any organization were established it would be simply for the purpose of learning through service.... The ideas of ritual, priesthood, or even of faith in God as essential for salvation are not in harmony with the concept of just God.
I would reflect more on the impact of your theological positions, and evaluate them honestly within your conscience to see if perhaps you discover any dissonance. If there is any, I would investigate further. If you truly have been seeking to know the truth you must be accustomed to making bold choices and following your conscience and gut at all costs. I for one view my conscience as more important than my testimonies, because I believe my conscience is conditioned by emotion but also by education, where my religious experiences are totally governed by subconscious processes I cannot detect. I do not feel my gut should govern my mind, and I don't think wrong should be called right just because I have a testimony. If God appeared to me and told me to start killing people I would tell him to take a hike.
TV
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Re: Ditto. Re: Me first -- The Vines Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Wayne Wilson ®
05/13/2002, 16:41:04
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filler
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What a foolish statement!! Re: #6481 -- Alan Boycott Top of thread Archive
Posted by: The Vines ®
05/16/2002, 19:44:46
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Dear Sir:
You say:
I am afraid that you are grossly mistaken and have fallen into the trap most intellectuals fall into by thinking they know of them selves what is right and what is wrong. No wonder the world is in such a mess!
With respect you are burying your talent in the sands of your own complacent arrogance. God requires you to act upon the feelings you have been given and be engaged in bringing about his work.
Why don't you read what you wrote sir. Why do you believe? Don't you believe because you trust your feelings? Isn't this the whole basis of a testimony?
The only ARROGANCE I see here is your's in saying that if one follows his feelings it will lead to acting toward bringing about God's work, or translated, become LDS .
You obviously did not listen. I told you that the very conscience within me that lead me into all my religious experience is the very factor that is leading me away from it. I know that is hard for you to accept because you automatically assume that what you know to be truth automatically qualifies me as one who his negating his feelings, or divine promptings. That is an arrogant belief, and it is wrong.
Analyze your words sir, and discover the very danger I was talking to you about: territoriality, demarcations, division,etc... Your very mentality makes you assume you belong to a class of people who have received the one and only doctrine, priesthood, and power. You assume you have a monopoly on certain powers and privileges, and are completely ignorant of the falsity and the danger of these claims. Obviously there is not one thing in the LDS world of religious experience that is unique to LDS, there is nothing within the LDS experience that cannot be found even outside of Christianity.
Tell me sir you say that one cannot know of himself what is right and what is wrong... (Or better you meant to say that what you believe is right and wrong needs to be changed if it is in opposition to Church doctrine, practice, and authority) Do you understand the danger of what you are saying? Don't you see what tremendous bullshit that is?!? First of all there is nothing doctrinal within the Church that says that man cannot know what is right and wrong of himself, that you rationalize this by saying that God inspires this sense of judgement is irrelevant because then I will tell you that God is inspiring me to believe that the LDS Church is in error. The real problem is that you are believing that your sense of what is right and wrong is subservient to your spiritual experiences and to the authority you believe those experiences validate.
What you don't understand is that those experiences do not validate anything. You only have faith that they do, and you choose to accept them as validation to justify your belief system. I can understand that, but I CANNOT ACCEPT that you will say that these subjective religious experiences are more important than your sense of right and wrong. By saying that sir you qualify yourself as a fool.
The only real tool you have as a human being to really grow toward God is your discernment of what is right and what is wrong. Any doctrine or practice that contradicts or is not in harmony with your feelings should be analyzed. Simple acceptance consequent to obedience is not right. One must think to see if there is harmony with God's character.
Example: is it right to discriminate against someone because of their race, or gender? The principles God has revealed say no, and our conscience says no (hopefully), yet the Church engaged in this practice. Today Gordon B. Hinckley explains (correctly) that this was never a doctrine of the Church, but only a practice. That we never had a revelation to act this way... Tell that to the members who still believe God directed this, and justify this practice!!! They still condition themselves to put aside their feelings of right and wrong to obey... Obey what sir?? To obey their feelings of testimony which validate their worldview and consequently give authority to leadership.
What you don't realize obviously is that these religious experiences are to be found outside the LDS context, and that they do not validate anything. You only have faith they do, just as protestants believe they validate their faith, and buddhist theirs, etc... and you are all CHOOSING TO BELIEVE that you are right in your assumptions. In your case you are choosing to make your conscience subservient to your belief.
When a human being makes his sense of right and wrong subservient to a religious belief he is a danger to society because he will act against his feelings of judgement if called upon by an authoritative figure because he feels his religious experience and consequent worldview justifies this. This is what the terrorists are doing!
You sir need to stop BSing yourself and start trusting your God given talent to think for yourself and to judge according to your God given conscience. You need to study science, and theology better and find out for youself if they harmonize within your conscience, and stop blowing your poisonous hot air around... You are damaging the world my kids need to grow up in!!
TV
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OK Re: #6496 -- Alan Boycott Top of thread Archive
Posted by: The Vines ®
05/17/2002, 21:15:21
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Mr. Boycott:
I am not offended with religion, or with the LDS. MY spouse and children are very active LDS, along with all my immediate family.
I have no reason to be offended with anyone in the Church. As I said, my distance from the Church is a matter of conscience. I know that is hard to accept, but that is the truth. I cannot in good conscience accept certain ascpects of theology and doctrine within Christianity (not all).
I do not see religion as the source of all problems in the world. Far from that! I believe religion can be a powerful tool in teaching very special principles to human beings. I know without a doubt that I would not even be close to what I am as a human today had it not been for the Church, for I did not have an enviroment to grow up in that fostered the principles that are so essential to grow up as a functional and "good" human being.
What I cannot accept is the territoriality, division, and exaltation of a segment of humanity based on their belief that they are special or chosen according to a theology or belief system, validated by subjective religious experiences that have nothing to do with the theology itself.
I respect your zeal sir, but I would that you saw things as they are, outside the shell of your belief. I must admit that I think you have not searched for the reality of these things enough. I invite you to study the common manifestation of spiritual experiences outside the LDs environment, even outside the religious one, as well as the scientific basis behind them. This study will not invalidate your belief in God, but it will make the details of such belief more realistic and will clarify for you certain contradictory aspects of your belief system.
TV
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Re: OK Re: OK -- The Vines Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Lynn ®
05/19/2002, 12:13:43
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Dear friends,
"Although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt I had to write and urge you to contend for the faith that God has once for all entrusted to the saints."
Written by Jude, a servant of Jesus Christ and a brother of James............(Jude 3)
Jude talked about 'the Faith' and this faith and grace of God is what we, living our life as Christians, must contend for, that is, to put up a hard fight in order to maintain our Faith in God's promises and all his Son taught while on earth. Jude also said this, "remember what the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ foretold. They said to you, "In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow their own ungodly desirres. These are the men who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and do not have the Spirit. But you, dear friends, build yourselves up in your most holy faith and pray in the Holy Spirit. Keep yourselves in God's love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life. Be merciful to those who doubt; snatch others from the fire and save them; to others show mercy, mixed with fear--hating even the clothing stained by corrupted flesh". (Jude 17-23)
(Rev. 2:25)"Hold fast what you have until I come and to him that conquers and observes my deeds down to the end, I will give authority over the nations."
(Rev. 2:10) "Prove yourselves faithful even to death, and I will give you the crown of life."
What do you think? Does he mean, Prove ourselves faithful to our religion? or to God?
When this was written, there was only one True Faith at the time, and this was the one Christ Jesus taught, as well his Apostles. There were to be no various 'religions to branch from what the Apostles taught. But yet, Apostle Paul warned about the Great Apostacy. These would be strange teachings not accord to what was given the early Christians in the time of Christ and the Apostles. If anyone teaches something different than what the early Christians were given, then I would say these are the destructive sects and divisions that would quietly slip into the congregations. And we see them all around the world in our day. These are so much like what the early Christians had to experience. Some were thrown out of the congregation, simply for sticking up for Apostle Paul. Imagine that, the apostacy was already showing up.
:Lynn
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Question Re: Re: OK -- Lynn Top of thread Archive
Posted by: The Vines ®
05/20/2002, 06:11:15
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Dear Lynn:
I do respect your faith and integrity, and I know it brings good to you and those around you in many ways.
What I would ask you is: do you think that proving oneself faithful to God has to do with being good people like Jesus was good, or does it have to do with simply accepting Christ? Do you believe one can prove faithful without even knowing God? Or do you believe good works do no good without the acceptance of Christ?
More than one question, but essential for me to understand your mind in regards to religion.
TV
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Re: Scripture as a basis for authority Re: #6417 -- Alan Boycott Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Wayne Wilson ®
05/13/2002, 16:51:57
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I completely agree with your first statement.
"reliance on scripture alone...is misguided."
Infact why use scripture at all. Just observe your life, look at the constant cause and effect of your actions. Just observing the reasons for your actions could fill volumes.
You could find more truth about your own life than you can find in any scripture.
Wayne
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Consensus as a basis for authority. Re: #6482 -- Alan Boycott Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Wayne Wilson ®
05/18/2002, 01:02:14
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You are in a community where faith and fidelity to God are two of the most important factors; they allow you to belong to that community. That community has standards that they use to measure the devotion of it's members. The standards may be perceived as coming from God or some divinity, but in the hands of the community those standards are interpreted by it's members.
If one who does not trust completely the interpretations of Gods standards,they may rely on personal revelation.
If that revelation is not in line with the communities values, then the revelation would be seen as false.(I mean in extreme cases)So even with personal revelation of scriptural instruction, that revelation is influenced by "peers pressure."
My argument is: if morals and standards are in the end shaped by human communities, then why not rely on balanced, rational thought and simple observence in order to judge if they are benefiting all the members of the community?
Wayne
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