| For The Vines |  | ||
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Posted by: Jersey Girl ® 04/23/2002, 12:49:20 Author Profile Mail author |
Hi TV, I hope you don't mind that I brought this to the top but I have a sense that you are about to question me at length and the existing thread is getting long. Unlike some, I fully welcome this since in the questioning I am presented with the opportunity to simultaneously share my beliefs as well as examine them. I'll do my best to address your current questions but I have to put it up in parts because AOL shuts me down when I try to post long posts. Please bear with me. Vicki |
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Replies to this message
Am I a Christian? Re: For The Vines -- Jersey Girl Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Jersey Girl ®
04/23/2002, 12:51:17
Author Profile Mail author
I am a born again Christian TV. If you wish specifics on what I mean by that just ask but know, that in doing so you will open the door to testimony and it will seem different than LDS testimony. It is my personal principle not to share unless asked.
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The Atonement Re: Am I a Christian? -- Jersey Girl Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Jersey Girl ®
04/23/2002, 13:06:48
Author Profile Mail author
TV, this may lead me to post other issues as well but here goes. In order to discuss the Atonement of Jesus Christ, I need to state what I believe about Jesus Christ.
I believe that God the Father entered human history in the bodily form of Jesus Christ (the Son). I believe that the purpose of His ministry was to teach, to lead by example, to prepare others to teach the Gospel, and to carry out the will of the Father in dying on the cross.
I believe that Jesus Christ presented himself in full submission to the will of the Father and in the tradition of the Old Testament sacrifice, was the perfect sacrifice...the unblemished Lamb of God. I believe He bore our sins on the cross, to show us the path of human life, death, resurrection and demonstrate the bridge to eternity...as the Ultimate Object lesson. By that I mean, it wasn't enough for him to teach it...he proved it.
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Thank you so much for sharing that... more please Re: For The Vines -- Jersey Girl Top of thread Archive
Posted by: The Vines ®
04/23/2002, 18:49:37
Author Profile Mail author
Dear Vicki:
Thank you for accepting to explain your beliefs as I asked.
I have a great respect for your beliefs and appreciate the attitude of "incompleteness" that you carry, unlike many other believers who so often claim to know almost God's own mind... I sense that this is the only true way to even try to approach God, and I commend you for such self-honesty and candor.
What I don't quite understand is how you connect your thoughts as expressed on the previous series of postings, where you stated a belief that all religions are man made, with the current one where you express your thoughts on Christ and his role as redeemer.
Being born again Christian, or just Christian plain and simple is an affirmation of religion. The very idea of your acceptance of Christ as a historical figure, as well as the embodiment of the Divine into mortality is an expression of Chistian religion. So do you consider what you believe in "man-made?"
TV
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More Re: Thank you so much for sharing that... more please -- The Vines Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Jersey Girl ®
04/23/2002, 23:41:36
Author Profile Mail author
Hi TV,
There is more I want to say on Christ however I'll try to embed it in my reply here. No, I don't think what I believe about Christ or the Atonement to be man made. I believe that Jesus Christ is the Messiah foretold in the Old Testament scriptures...from his lineage, the location of his birth, his death on the cross, and his unbroken bones...etc. (See, I slipped it right in there!)
In my view the embodiement, as you refer to it, of the Divine isn't an expression of Christianity, it was an expression of God. I consider what I believe in to be authored by God, made by him, intended by him, and fulfilled by him. (let me continue in another post TV..if I get shut down once more I'll throw something at the screen)
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(aside TV) Re: More -- Jersey Girl Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Jersey Girl ®
04/23/2002, 23:52:32
Author Profile Mail author
TV,
It's late and I just tried to post a continuation of "more" and got shut down. I am immensely frustrated and tired. If you will be patient with me, I'll try to continue tomorrow afternoon. Please stand by...
Vicki
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And More... Re: (aside TV) -- Jersey Girl Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Jersey Girl ®
04/24/2002, 15:47:09
Author Profile Mail author
Still working in pieces here TV. You wanted to know my views on religion?
I think that organized religion does stem from belief however I also think that man/humans have nearly completely corrupted religion due to politics, greed, and the desire for power and status. I hold views that I think are Biblical, but I do not see them fully expressed in organized religion today. Organized religion, in my view, has become just another cog in the wheel of politics.
Vicki
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Re: And More... Re: And More... -- Jersey Girl Top of thread Archive
Posted by: JAK1 ®
04/24/2002, 17:37:47
Author Profile Mail author
Vicki states: “I think that organized religion does stem from belief however I also think that man/humans have nearly completely corrupted religion due to politics, greed, and the desire for power and status. I hold views that I think are Biblical, but I do not see them fully expressed in organized religion today. Organized religion, in my view, has become just another cog in the wheel of politics.”
JAK:
There is something here which you do not recognize. Religion has always been a product of “politics, greed, and the desire for power and status.” That is particularly the case for Christianity as it has evolved into more than a thousand denominations. There is some degree of organization in any view including yours. Even a small group of people who may regard themselves as independents must have some degree of consensus to function as a group -- as an organization.
There is absolutely no way for you or anyone today to escape the influence of “organized religion.” You state that you think it is “nearly completely corrupted...” Every single group in organized Christianity regards all OTHER groups “corrupted” to some degree. The closer to agreement one group is with another, the less “corrupted” it may regard that other group. Conversely, the greater the DISAGREEMENT, the higher the perception of corruption.
ALL these various Christian adherents hold views which they regard as “Biblical.” You hold views that you “think are Biblical.” Of course you do. What you fail to recognize here is that everyone ELSE who holds views different from yours AND regards themselves as Christian ALSO holds views that they think are Biblical. Your position holds NO uniqueness. The fact that you “do not see them fully expressed in organized religion...” is of no consequence.
Organized religion is comprised as many “cogs” if you will. The spread and diversity of Christianity is all those “cogs.” And YOUR view is simply another “cog.” That you believe that only YOU have the “Biblical” understanding is self-delusion. As with all who engage in self delusion, such individuals believe that their view is NOT delusion. They often believe (as you imply for yourself) that all OTHER views which differ from their own are flawed. That is your assertion in the above paragraph. In your view, the very fact of organization is in itself a contaminate. It would logically follow that you believe that the MORE organization which religion has, the more contaminated. The anthesis of that view would be to advocate Christian anarchy. Such would be an oxymoron. The very cement of religion IS organization. Absent organization what do you have?
As each person and/or group brings his/its own interpretation to religion, religious perspective evolves to yet another slant, tilt, or “cog” in the mosaic of religion. While it may be comforting to bash all other views as contaminated by “politics,” or “greed,” or “desire for power,” the very practice of doing that is an expression of desire for power. Why do you proselytize on this forum? You wish to influence. Otherwise, you would use your time for things immediate to you. In your many posts, you clearly demonstrate that you have a “desire for power.”
In any event, your analysis above reveals you to be just another participant in the corrupting process. You assert that YOUR interpretations are the correct ones. You are like any other person who does just as you do...push your own views as the correct ones. You use the Bible selectively just as do others. You quote what you like, interpret it the way you like, and declare that other views are corrupted by “politics,” “greed,” and “desire for power and status.”
If your influence were wider, you would become an organization.
JAK
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question Re: Re: And More... -- JAK1 Top of thread Archive
Posted by: rdl ®
04/24/2002, 18:37:26
Author Profile Mail author
... for JAK, or Vicky, or anyone else who wishes to chime in...
Is Religion the same as Religious Beliefs?
For instance; if I claim to have Jesus in my life but I do not belong to any established religious organization, I do not attend any specific "church", and I choose to pray and worship privately, am I still considered a member of a religion? Or, if I believe in a higher power, of unspecified source, and I attend the local Unitarian Universalist Church faithfully, am I a member of a religion? What if I do not believe in any kind of a higher power, but I attend every American Atheist's function that I can find and faithfully donate, oh say...10% of my interest, to the AA, am I a member of a religion? If I read the bible daily and live my life according to my interpretation of it's tenets, yet I do not belong to any denomination, am I a member of a religion?
rdl
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Re: question Re: question -- rdl Top of thread Archive
Posted by: JAK1 ®
04/24/2002, 20:49:54
Author Profile Mail author
Good questions. (That usually means answers are difficult.) rdl states:
For instance; if I claim to have Jesus in my life but I do not belong to any established religious organization, I do not attend any specific "church", and I choose to pray and worship privately, am I still considered a member of a religion?JAK:
The answer is yes. The Bible is an example of organization and deliberate orchestration of religious ideas. The fact that no record of anything attributed to “Jesus” was written until 30 years after the alleged death of “Jesus” demonstrates organization required to depict what Jesus was alleged to have said. No one there recorded it. As you know, there is no real evidence of an historical Jesus. Had the words of Jesus been reported or recorded AT THE TIME of expression, there would be a stronger case that such a figure existed. In your hypothetical example, the Bible itself is a product of organization. Words from it have been translated and re-translated over centuries. Those translations have been undertaken by organization. Virtually all of those organizational, authorized, and financed writings were done by governmental forces favorable to perpetuation of Christianity. Without organization, there would be no record of Jesus. 30 to 100 years AFTER the alleged communications of “Jesus” is more than sufficient time for political and governmental agendas to impose bias on biblical stories about Jesus or simply generate them.No matter how “privately” one practices Christianity, he cannot escape the impact of multiple organizational influences upon the translated and re-translated words throughout 2000 years. Any person attempting to “claim to have Jesus...” does so only by connecting to influences and creations of organizational institution. If one claims himself to be “Christian,” he is “a member of a religion.” In this case, he is a member of the Christian religion. If a person “claims to have Jesus,” and makes that “claim” as a result of reading any writings connected with Christianity, he is some kind of “a member of a religion.”
rdl states:
Or, if I believe in a higher power, of unspecified source, and I attend the local Unitarian Universalist Church faithfully, am I a member of a religion?JAK:
Here you speak of a specific organization. You might “attend’ yet not join. What constitutes membership? That depends upon the written, stated, or implied “rules” of membership. This is a different question than the first which you posed. You choice of Unitarian Universalist Church is a good one to stir the issue. Since Unitarian Universalist Church members vary widely in their views, the question is more one of whether the Unitarian Universalist Church which YOU attend perceives itself as primarily Christian.The Unitarian Universalist Association is a religious denomination formed in 1961 to consolidate the American Unitarian Association and the Universalist Church of America. The association’s members are LOCAL, self-governing congregations and fellowships. It is organized under a board of trustees chosen by a general assembly.
This denomination developed from protests against the doctrine of the Trinity as held by orthodox Christians, and it supports complete freedom of belief by its members. Hence, it is well within the Protestant tradition.
Since Unitarians believe in the unity of God they are clearly religious and a religious organization. So, yes, you are a member of a religion. The term Unitarians also extends to religious groups dating from the 1500s to the present. They reject creeds as a basis for authority in religion. Again, this position is one of protest, Protestant.
Early supporters of Unitarianism were Francis David (1510-1579) in Transylvania, then part of Hungary; and Faustus Socinus (1539-1604), leader of the Minor Reformed Church in Poland. In England, Unitarian views were advanced by John Biddle (1615-1662). The main development of English Unitarianism came during the 1700s when many churches that had previously been Presbyterian became Unitarian.
So, Unitarians stem from a main line Protestant denomination -- Christian.
Disputes in the United states between the liberal Unitarians and the orthodox Congregationalists became so bitter after 1805 that many churches divided. The Unitarians were forced to organize as a separate religious body. The most prominent supporter of the Unitarians during this period was a Boston clergyman named William Ellery Channing. His sermon “Unitarian Christianity” (1819) was widely accepted as a good statement of their position. The American Unitarian Association was organized in 1825.
rdl states:
What if I do not believe in any kind of a higher power, but I attend every American Atheist's function that I can find and faithfully donate, oh say...10% of my interest, to the AA, am I a member of a religion?JAK:
No. Attending and donating (the % is irrelevant) money does not make you a “member.” While this is hypothetical (I presume), your question is really one of definition for membership.rdl states:
If I read the bible daily and live my life according to my interpretation of it's tenets, yet I do not belong to any denomination, am I a member of a religion?JAK:
That would seem to be an improbable hypothetical, rdl.Membership may seem to be an on/off alternative only. But I suspect there are members of all kinds of organizations whose committment to those organizations varies from extensive involvement to almost if not zero involvement. Are you a member of your community? What does that mean? What is it to be a member of a community? If you live somewhere, anywhere, it would be difficult NOT to be a member of a community. How would one abdicate “membership” of a community? That is, application of the word “member” is different in the context of community.
Are you a member of the human race?
I have friends who come and eat regularly with me at the Country Club. They are not members of the Country Club. Membership in the Country Club means one pays pays minimum dues. This particular Country Club requires that a dues paying member accompany anyone who is not. The “membership list” is very tight. Not just anyone can walk into the restaurant at the CC and have lunch or dinner. They cannot play golf, they cannot use the pool, etc. They cannot bargain for a “wholesale” price for membership. As a private club, its levels of membership are clearly defined by the board. Dues are monthly. One cannot be a half-member.
Your post really explores the nuance of definition, perceived or stated.
JAK
Modified by JAK1 at Wed, Apr 24, 2002, 20:54:13
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Re: answers Re: Re: question -- JAK1 Top of thread Archive
Posted by: rdl ®
04/24/2002, 21:21:00
Author Profile Mail author
My post was meant to explore the nuances of definition, perceived or stated.
rdl states: What if I do not believe in any kind of a higher power, but I attend every American Atheist's function that I can find and faithfully donate, oh say...10% of my interest, to the AA, am I a member of a religion?
JAK: No. Attending and donating (the % is irrelevant) money does not make you a “member.” While this is hypothetical (I presume), your question is really one of definition for membership.
I have friends who come and eat regularly with me at the Country Club. They are not members of the Country Club. Membership in the Country Club means one pays minimum dues. This particular Country Club requires that a dues paying member accompany anyone who is not. The “membership list” is very tight. Not just anyone can walk into the restaurant at the CC and have lunch or dinner. They cannot play golf, they cannot use the pool, etc. They cannot bargain for a “wholesale” price for membership. As a private club, its levels of membership are clearly defined by the board. Dues are monthly. One cannot be a half-member.
I took the above quotes a bit out of context in order to juxtapose them. Isn't there a contradiction in what you are saying here?
I guess a better question regarding Atheism would be: Is it a religion? If you adamantly and actively believe that there is No God, is that the same as adamantly and actively believing that there Is a God? Is it the act of believing in something that cannot be proven that constitutes a religion?
rdl
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Re: answers Re: Re: answers -- rdl Top of thread Archive
Posted by: JAK1 ®
04/24/2002, 22:45:52
Author Profile Mail author
rdl states:
I took the above quotes a bit out of context in order to juxtapose them. Isn't there a contradiction in what you are saying here?
I guess a better question regarding Atheism would be: Is it a religion? If you adamantly and actively believe that there is No God, is that the same as adamantly and actively believing that there Is a God? Is it the act of believing in something that cannot be proven that constitutes a religion?JAK:
Perhaps no simple definition can describe the numerous religions of the world, rdl. For many people, religion is an organized system of beliefs, ceremonies, practices and worship that centers on one supreme God or the Deity. For many others, religion involves a number of gods, or deities. Some people have a religion in which no specific God or gods are worshipped. There are also people who practice their own religious beliefs in their own personal way, largely independent of organized religion. Most people who follow some form of religion believe that a divine power created the world and influences their lives.Based upon such a general and brief definition, atheism isn’t a religion. In all ages of history, people who have not followed the accepted form of religion have been called atheists. The ancient Athenians executed Socrates, partly because he did not believe in the city’s gods. The Romans of Nero’s time sent Christians to their death with the cry, “Away with the atheists!” I mention these to illustrate how perceptions and perspectives change over time.
JAK
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Unable to post Re: Re: answers -- JAK1 Top of thread Archive
Posted by: JAK1 ®
04/24/2002, 22:50:39
Author Profile Mail author
While the previous post made it, rdl, I have found that the board is rejecting my responses to your posts. I have no idea why this is the case. But I get a message that I am not registered. I have registered as JAK1 because the board denied that I had registered as JAK. I have no idea what is going on, but suspect I may be unable to respond to you or anyone else.
JAK
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Jussec JAK Re: Unable to post -- JAK1 Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Jersey Girl ®
04/25/2002, 00:08:34
Author Profile Mail author
How do you know the board is rejecting your posts? Sometimes I try to post and it shows an "error"...when it does that I need to go back to the post I'm making and type in my password. Sometimes I have to do it repeatedly. Does that help at all? (blind leading the blind here...)
Vicki
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Re: Jussec JAK Re: Jussec JAK -- Jersey Girl Top of thread Archive
Posted by: JAK1 ®
04/27/2002, 19:04:17
Author Profile Mail author
Thanks Vicki, I don’t know what occurs here. There are any number of places for thing to fail. I don’t know what the problem is with lengthy posts from you. I have never had that happen. But the rejection of my post gave me no clue how to solve or get posted. The change of name in my case was because “JAK” was rejected. The message was that “JAK” was NOT registered. So, I re-registered as “JAK1.” That worked and seems to be working at the moment. I could not communicate with “administrator.” when I tried.
JAK
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Re: Unable to post Re: Unable to post -- JAK1 Top of thread Archive
Posted by: rdl ®
04/25/2002, 06:29:29
Author Profile Mail author
JAK,
The reason you are unable to post is because this board is possessed by religious demons who object to your attempts at corrupting my (and other's) impressionable old mind. As soon as you concede and start posting uplifting, spiritual tomes your difficulties will cease.
;-)
rdl
ps. Vicky, your difficulties are with AOL which is possessed by atheist angels. Your only recourse is to post didactic analysations of religious beliefs.
...I know this is true because when I attempted to spell check and post this, I too was a victim of outside forces and lost the entire post...but I persevered and overcame.
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My Pledge! Re: Re: Unable to post -- rdl Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Jersey Girl ®
04/25/2002, 20:27:51
Author Profile Mail author
I too shall overcome the devil spawns that have infested the inner workings of AOL and plot to shut me down! I will not succumb to the censors below! I pay good money for this! I am...Victoria, Queen of the Late Night Kingdom!
My sword is flame! ;)
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Re: Unable to post Re: Re: Unable to post -- rdl Top of thread Archive
Posted by: JAK1 ®
04/27/2002, 19:15:29
Author Profile Mail author
rdl, Thanks for clarifying those details. I should have know them but am naive. “Demons” are just outside my view. I have heard of them though.
I shall try to “start posting uplifting, spiritual tomes.” ...not quite sure what “tomes” are, but I will attempt to track them down. ;-)
JAK
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tomes... Re: Re: Unable to post -- JAK1 Top of thread Archive
Posted by: rdl ®
04/27/2002, 19:23:51
Author Profile Mail author
are lengthy books (or maybe writings?). The spiritual, uplifting ones are even lengthier (or maybe they just seem that way)
....glad to see you beat the demons.
rdl
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Re: Thanks, rdl Re: tomes... -- rdl Top of thread Archive
Posted by: JAK1 ®
04/27/2002, 19:42:34
Author Profile Mail author
I am just posting now since I can. The demons are out for a Saturday night fling. JAK
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Re: question Re: Re: question -- JAK1 Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Jersey Girl ®
04/25/2002, 00:18:11
Author Profile Mail author
Hi JAK
In over my head as usual, yet unafraid! I have a question...as far as organizations go...what's the difference between your country club and my church? Are members of your club not a collection of people with similar goals?
Vicki
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Re: question Re: Re: question -- Jersey Girl Top of thread Archive
Posted by: JAK1 ®
04/27/2002, 18:58:26
Author Profile Mail author
Vicki stated:
In over my head as usual, yet unafraid! I have a question...as far as organizations
go...what's the difference between your country club and my church? Are members of your
club not a collection of people with similar goals?Hi Vicki,
I presume the e-mail did not work from me to you either. But I will try the forum once again just to give it a chance.
In response to your query, my comment to rdl indicated that “membership” means different things in different venues. So in response to your observation and questions here, the comment to rdl applies. Nuances of membership or the membership itself or the requirements for membership are different in different situations.
We are all have “membership” in the human race. It is not a choice, not related to financial abilities, not related to “political pull” within certain circles. WE ARE MEMBERS of the human race as long as we live. While we do have “similar goals,” we are so divided that we plot to kill one another and carry out the plot. We also plot to help one another (different people than those we plot to kill) and carry THAT out.
I am sure you can easily see distinctions in “membership” as it might be applied in various situations. You and I are “members” of this forum. Se signed in or registered. That is sufficient to allow us to communicate with one another as “members.” In recent days the forum has rejected my posts. Your posts have been somehow restricted on AOL for some reason which (I at least) we don’t now. I am reasonably sure it is not personal -- a computer glitch.
Membership in some organizations requires much more than in some others. If the organization WANTS members (new members), it is usually easy to become a member. On the other hand, if the organization is exclusive and wants no more members, becoming a member may be a challenge. You have to know someone, have a skill, be in the right place at the right time to become a member. The word member still applies.
Some years ago I remember a “men’s” club in Chicago. NO WOMEN. No women worked there either. I forget the exact title and don’t know if it still exists today considering all the pressure for equality of the sexes.
There are certainly differences between membership in your church and my country club -- some of which I described in a post that made it to the board here. Your reference to “similar goals” might be refined to read specific goals. Of course there are often similar goals as you observe. We have a homeowner’s association. There are about a hundred homes in our association. As a member of the board, we deal with issues directly related to the neighborhood. There is considerable diversity in the neighborhood. For some, the only time they see and talk with other members of the association is at the annual meeting. It is almost like a reunion. To be sure, we see one another in passing and even talk with one another on no regular or required way. Politically we have diversity, religiously we have diversity, intellectually we have diversity, economically we have diversity, etc. Yet we are “members” of the association and pay dues to maintain common property, etc.
Perhaps I have over-explained here, but your question implied that there might be no difference between my club and your church. There is difference. I trust this clarifies some.
JAK
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(aside JAK) Re: Re: question -- JAK1 Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Jersey Girl ®
04/27/2002, 19:47:36
Author Profile Mail author
The email worked just fine JAK. I haven't had time to reply yet.
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Re: (aside JAK) Re: (aside JAK) -- Jersey Girl Top of thread Archive
Posted by: JAK1 ®
04/27/2002, 20:04:06
Author Profile Mail author
Ahh. Many thanks for that post, Miss Vicki. I was convinced that the e-mail was not working. I have had problems with my service provider, and I thought this was part of it. ...not a topic for the board, but I appreciate your post just here. JAK
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I'm convinced rdl is correct! ;) Re: Re: (aside JAK) -- JAK1 Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Jersey Girl ®
04/28/2002, 01:26:11
Author Profile Mail author
Modified by Jersey Girl at Sun, Apr 28, 2002, 01:26:42
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JAK if my influence were wider Re: Re: And More... -- JAK1 Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Jersey Girl ®
04/25/2002, 00:34:03
Author Profile Mail author
more people would feel loved and valued.
Vicki
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Re: JAK if my influence were wider Re: JAK if my influence were wider -- Jersey Girl Top of thread Archive
Posted by: JAK1 ®
04/27/2002, 19:07:55
Author Profile Mail author
Vicki, That is certainly a nice thought. It is a different topic that was under discussion in your criticism of “organized religion.”
JAK
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Thread twisting Re: Re: JAK if my influence were wider -- JAK1 Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Jersey Girl ®
04/28/2002, 00:03:36
Author Profile Mail author
You said if my influence were wider that I would be organized. To which I responded ...if my influence were wider more people would feel loved and valued. I thought this was totally in keeping with the statement...a nice fluid comment...of course you know, there is no evidence for love. ;)
Vicki
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Re: Thread twisting Re: Thread twisting -- Jersey Girl Top of thread Archive
Posted by: JAK1 ®
04/29/2002, 21:41:32
Author Profile Mail author
Now Vicki, It was your assertion that there was no evidence for love. I have you EXTENDED examples of evidence for love. Others gave you examples of evidence for love and supported my examples and illustrations of evidences for love.
If our extended examples many months ago failed to convince you, they would fail to convince you now. There are also evidences for hate which we could cite. Evidence for both love and hate can be found in human behavior and response to given stimuli in specific situations.
I doubt you want to revisit that issue.
The “issue” in the thread above had to do with “organized religion.” It was your post. “Thread twisting” is non-sequitur.
Were your influence wider, you would promote your views in an organized fashion. That is not to suggest that YOU are not organized. But with regard to “organized religion” to which you raised objection, your posts demonstrate and are evidence that you would like to influence others to believe as YOU believe. Today, new religious sects have a rather difficult road. There is so much competition that they have little chance of succeeding. In addition, virtually every twist has already been tried. The all-religion cable TV stations are still trying some, but they aren’t new. Just more packaging.
JAK
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I'm clairvoyant! Re: Re: Thread twisting -- JAK1 Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Jersey Girl ®
04/29/2002, 21:52:21
Author Profile Mail author
I knew you wouldn't be able to resist it JAK. ;)
Vicki
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Re: I'm clairvoyant! Re: I'm clairvoyant! -- Jersey Girl Top of thread Archive
Posted by: JAK1 ®
04/29/2002, 22:00:45
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Vicki, You didn’t even know that I would be reading “it.” When things happen that we think might happen and then DO happen, we often perceive that we were “clairvoyant.” The coincidence doesn’t mean we were. We also have perceptions which never happen. We soon forget about those and dismiss them. But when something happens that we considered might happen, we like to delude ourselves into thinking that we had mental telepathy or “clairvoyance.” It is a kind of self-validating experience that massages our emotional need to feel that we called it right.
It is only by chance that I am home writing here. I could very well have been elsewhere. You could have been elsewhere. I did notice that you did not attempt to rekindle the “no evidence for love” position which you took those months ago. Have you changed your mind on that? I certainly hope so. No need to respond to that question.
JAK
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As a matter of fact... Re: Re: I'm clairvoyant! -- JAK1 Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Jersey Girl ®
04/29/2002, 22:07:24
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there is no evidence for love but that which we perceive and interpret as love.
;)
Vicki
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Re: As a matter of fact... Re: As a matter of fact... -- Jersey Girl Top of thread Archive
Posted by: JAK1 ®
04/29/2002, 23:27:25
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Ah yes, just as there is no evidence for gravity but that which we perceive and interpret as gravity.
Perhaps you would care to apprise yourself of the meaning of evidence.
;-) Not evidence, just a perception. I perceive the forest fire no longer is a threat to you. At least, I hope that is the case.
JAK
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The evidence Re: Re: As a matter of fact... -- JAK1 Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Jersey Girl ®
04/29/2002, 23:30:26
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of the slurry bombers flying over would appear to prove you wrong.
Vicki
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Re: The evidence Re: The evidence -- Jersey Girl Top of thread Archive
Posted by: JAK1 ®
04/29/2002, 23:34:46
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Non-sequitur
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Re: The evidence Re: Re: The evidence -- JAK1 Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Jersey Girl ®
04/29/2002, 23:41:16
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Boring
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Re: The evidence Re: Re: The evidence -- Jersey Girl Top of thread Archive
Posted by: JAK1 ®
04/29/2002, 23:53:23
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That was as good an escape root for you as any.
;-)JAK
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Re: The evidence Re: Re: The evidence -- Jersey Girl Top of thread Archive
Posted by: JAK1 ®
04/29/2002, 23:55:29
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And with that I am off to bed. It is LATE over here in the east. I am going to watch for the planets and the moon when skies permit. You have a much better view. I envy you that. JAK
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I must object Re: And More... -- Jersey Girl Top of thread Archive
Posted by: The Vines ®
04/24/2002, 20:21:11
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Dear Vicki:
I don't understand how you harmonize your thoughts. Please forgive me if I question further your thought process, but I don't understand how you can say that religions are all man made in one post, and then state that Christianity is not.
Jesus Christ, the son of God, is a theological concept transmitted to you via Christianity. Chrisitanity is a religion. You mention the Bible... The Bible is a book that belongs to the Christian religion. If you were Buddhist you wouldn't believe in Jesus Christ as the son of God... You do because you are Christian. I don't mean to sound condescending, but this is a simple contradiction that I do not know how else to make evident...
How do you explain this contradiction? You didn't above. All you did was claim that Christianity in part is not man made, which is contradicting your statement in the previous thread where you said that ALL religions are man made....
TV
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I thought Re: I must object -- The Vines Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Jersey Girl ®
04/25/2002, 00:06:38
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I clarified it with my post concerning the corruption of organized religion...did you read it? Perhaps it didn't make sense?
Vicki
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I read it and I don't think it addressed the issue Re: I thought -- Jersey Girl Top of thread Archive
Posted by: The Vines ®
04/25/2002, 22:29:56
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I don't understand Vines Re: I thought -- Jersey Girl Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Jersey Girl ®
04/26/2002, 22:46:56
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I don't understand where I failed to make my point. Tell me, what didn't make sense?
Vicki
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Re: I don't understand Vines Re: I don't understand Vines -- Jersey Girl Top of thread Archive
Posted by: The Vines ®
04/28/2002, 11:02:53
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As I posted above http://www.anyboard.net/soc/2think/posts/5951.html, I have not understood why you claimed all religion was man made on your post on the previous thread, and on this one instead you make an exception of sorts for Christianity.
The Bible, concepts of divine embodiment, etc... are all elements of the Christian Religion. I asked originally how you harmonized your thoughts about all religions being man made with your acceptance of Christianity. You started this new thread to explain. Your explanation really is not an explanation so far, its more a change of position, as far as I can see. You seem to be giving a privileged position to Christianity as exempt from your man made religions belief... how else can you accept its theological concepts as originating in God?
So my question was aimed at understanding the "why" of this apparent contradiction.
I hope this is clear.
TV
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Let me try again Re: Re: I don't understand Vines -- The Vines Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Jersey Girl ®
04/29/2002, 00:01:13
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Religion is man made. Chrisitanity is a man made religion based on the Bible, the principles, teachings, and recorded events contained in it. Does that help? I'm don't think I'm letting Christianity off the hook TV. Organized religion ....is corrupted by man. As I stated earlier...there is less evidence in organized religion today that churches are Biblical. What I'm seeing coming out of "organized" religion scarcely resembles what is taught through the scriptures.
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An example Re: Let me try again -- Jersey Girl Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Jersey Girl ®
04/29/2002, 00:11:20
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Here's an example of what I mean TV, when I say that what's coming out of some churches is corrupt. My friend Martin told me a story that he has also posted about here on the board. He tells of a bus load of Southern Baptists that entered a predominantly gay community somewhere in California. They carried signs, placards, and shouted insults to the residents there. Not only did they intrude on the community, they used their children to do it. You can quote Leviticus to me until you're blue in the face TV, but no way was this activity Biblical or Christ-like. The Christ that I follow would never have been on that bus. Quite the contrary, he would have been draining the fuel tank instead.
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Re: An example Re: An example -- Jersey Girl Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Jersey Girl ®
04/29/2002, 00:26:11
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The Christ I follow would have drained the fuel tank, stood up in the front of the bus and said "What exactly do you all think you're doing? I taught you to LOVE". Do you see TV? The Christ depicted in the Bible didn't "beat the hell out of death" to teach us how to hate eachother...he taught us to love...by example.
Modified by Jersey Girl at Mon, Apr 29, 2002, 00:58:46
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