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Posted by: Jason James ® 03/30/2002, 16:20:10 Author Profile Mail author |
The article was 99% crap and I cannot comprehend, for the life of me, why someone would 1)want to waste their time writing pure crap knowing while they're writing it that it's crap. 2)dislike others so much to publicly slander them when clearly neither the church as an entity or Joseph Smith himself offended Mr. Julius. and 3)where the heck did he get such ideas which are neither historical nor accurate, but rather are made up to either piss some people off or dissuade others from following what can, through prayer and study, be proven to be true through God's own method of asking and ye shall receive for the Holy Ghost will show you all things what ye should do. If this site is put here by true LDS members, they wouldn's allow such crap to be posted officially as part of their site. If this sit is not put here by true or faithful LDS members why put the nickname of a church which you obviously don't know the truth about or believe in or belong to on your site. This site needs to be more accurate. If I do remember correctly, the internet was created to convey information and knowledge and truth to others. Crap like that article is niether informative nor knowledgable nor correct and therefor is a useless waste of space that does nothing but rot the minds of those who read it. In fact, I am feeling the need to read something informative right know, because that article did nothing good for me. Slander of anyone ore any religion does no good to anyone. Thank you for considering my long winded comments and hope that they are insightful and do some good in helping to buiold religious acceptance and understanding.
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crap Re: Biography on Joseph Smith by C. Clark Julius -- Jason James Top of thread Archive
Posted by: rpcman ®
03/30/2002, 18:51:55
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Crap is critiquing something by doing nothing but calling it crap over and over again. Show us some specifics that Clark got wrong, some careful analysis on your part, and then maybe we will believe you.
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Re: Biography on Joseph Smith by C. Clark Julius Re: Biography on Joseph Smith by C. Clark Julius -- Jason James Top of thread Archive
Posted by: shooter ®
03/31/2002, 09:41:56
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"If I do remember correctly, the internet was created to convey information and knowledge and truth to others. Crap like that article is niether informative nor knowledgable nor correct and therefor is a useless waste of space that does nothing but rot the minds of those who read it."
Are you really this stupid?
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Brevity and complexity Re: Biography on Joseph Smith by C. Clark Julius -- Jason James Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Alf Omega ®
04/01/2002, 01:46:34
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The brief biography of Joseph Smith to which you refer is not ideal. No sketch of that length could capture the character of such a complex person as the Mormon prophet. But your dismissal of it as 99% crap is naive. Every claim in the biography has some non-trivial evidence behind it. I wish that Julius had made some rhetorical concessions to the ambiguities in the life of this most ambiguous figure, but his outline of Smith's life is not off by much. As an example, since I have recently done some reading on it, let me amplify this statement of his:
As much as she was able, Emma tried to ignore Joseph's infidelities and pretended they had not happened. But once when she caught Joseph embracing a woman whom Emma considered her good friend, Emma lost control of herself and attacked the woman with a broomstick.There may have been a conflict between Emma Smith and Eliza Snow in February 1843, when they were both living in the Mansion House in Nauvoo. No first-hand account of it survives. Eliza's diary has this entry for 11 February 1843: "Took board and had my lodging removed to the residence of br. [Jonathan] Holmes." (Maureen Ursenbach Beecher, ed., The Personal Writings of Eliza Roxcy Snow [Salt Lake City: University of Utah Press, 1995]) Several non-contemporary second- or third-hand accounts point to a conflict with Emma as the cause of this departure.LeRoi Snow, Lorenzo's son and Eliza's nephew, told the story that Emma knocked Eliza down a staircase, causing her to miscarry (Fawn M. Brodie, No Man Knows My History: The Life of Joseph Smith [New York: Vintage Books, 1995] 470). LeRoi was eleven when Eliza died, so he probably did not hear the story directly from her.
Wilhelm Wyl, an antagonistic source, tells a similar account:
Eliza Snow . . . used to be much at the prophet's house and "Sister Emma" treated her as a confidential friend. Very much interested in Joseph's errands, Emma used to send Eliza after him as a spy. Joseph found it out, and, to win over the gifted young poetess, he made her one of his celestial brides. There is scarcely a Mormon unacquainted with the fact, that Sister Emma, on the other side, soon found out the little compromise arranged between Joseph and Eliza. Feeling outraged as a wife and betrayed as a friend, Emma is currently reported as having had recourse to a vulgar broomstick as an instrument of revenge; and the harsh treatment received at Emma's hand is said to have destroyed Eliza's hopes of becoming the mother of a prophet's son (Wilhelm Wyl, Mormon Portraits: or the Truth About the Mormon Leaders, 1830-1886 [Salt Lake City: Tribune Press & Publ., 1886] 58).Charles Rich may have been an eyewitness of the incident. LeRoi's notes for biographies of his father and aunt (in the possession of Cynthia Snow Banner, cited in Maureen Ursenbach Beecher, Linda K. Newell, and Valeen T. Avery, "Emma, Eliza, and the Stairs: An Investigation," BYU Studies 22 [Winter 1982] 86-94) include the following account, from a letter (now lost) from W. Aird Macdonald, who heard it from his mission president from 1906-08, Ben E. Rich, Charles' son:A door opposite opened and dainty, little, dark-haired Eliza R. Snow (she was "heavy with child") came out . . . Joseph then walked on to the stairway, where he tenderly kissed Eliza, and then came on down stairs toward Brother Rich. Just as he reached the bottom step, there was a commotion on the stairway, and both Joseph and Brother Rich turned quickly to see Eliza come tumbling down the stairs. Emma had pushed her, in a fit of rage and jealousy; she stood at the top of the stairs, glowering, her countenance a picture of hell. Joseph quickly picked up the little lady, and with her in his arms, he turned and looked up at Emma, who then burst into tears and ran to her room. Joseph carried the hurt and bruised Eliza up the stairs and to her room. "Her hip was injured and that is why she always afterward favored that leg," said Charles C. Rich. "She lost the unborn babe."Mary A. Barzee Boyce tells another version:Emma went upstairs and pulled Eliza R. Snow downstairs by the hair of her head as she was staying there. Although she had consented to give him [Joseph] one or more women in the beginning. It was rumored while I, M. A. Barzee Boyce, was in Nauvoo that she tot [sic, got?] in such a rage about it that she left home and went down to Quincy but came back again while I was there (Reminiscences of Mary A. Barzee Boice, in John Boice Blessing Book, MS 8129, Church Archives, Historical Department, Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Salt Lake City).The tradition that Emma threw Eliza out of the house violently is supported by a 1931 letter in which John Young, Brigham's son, recalled talking with Solon Foster, a resident of the Smith home, who had a conversation with the adult Joseph Smith III (who made it a life-long crusade to deny that his father ever participated in polygamy):Joseph, the night your mother turned Eliza R. Snow into the street in her night clothes, you and all the Family stood crying, I led you back into the house and took you into Bed with me, you said, "I wish mother wouldn't be so cruel to Aunt Eliza"--You called her Aunt because you knew she was your Fathers wife (Letter, John R. Young to Vesta P. Crawford, in John Ray Young scrapbook, 1928-30, LDS Church Archives, as cited in Raymond Bailey, "Emma Hale, Wife of the Prophet Joseph Smith," Master's thesis, Brigham Young University, 1952, 187).So there seem to be multiple lines of evidence that some conflict occurred between Emma and Eliza, and Eliza may have lost a child. Since she continued to teach school, however, it is unlikely that she was visibly pregnant (although this certainly wouldn't preclude a miscarriage). The banishment also parallels a similar tradition concerning Fanny Alger. Emily and Eliza Partridge were also banished by Emma. Whatever the reason, Eliza Snow left the Smith household on 11 February 1843.This summary is based on Todd Compton, In Sacred Loneliness: The Plural Wives of Joseph Smith (Salt Lake City: Signature Books, 1997) 314-316.
Modified by Alf Omega at Mon, Apr 01, 2002, 01:57:12
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