Posted by: nathan ®
01/08/2002, 14:48:52
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If JS had picked up on something like Chiasmus and incorporated it into the BoM, he would not have been able to keep it to himself. He would have used it as an evidence to support the BOM, and he surely would have pointed it out to others. He would have been far too proud to keep it a secret. JS was sharp and had a good imagination, but I don't buy that he incorporated Chiasmus by design. If he were that meticulous, he wouldn't have messed up on so many other simple things, like the headless king gasping for breath. I think he just repeated himself alot.
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Posted by: rpcman ®
01/08/2002, 16:14:05
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I agree with you Nathan. The BofM is VERY repetative and many of the chiasms that are deemed "complex" or "sophisticated" by FARMS are really "a stretch" if you try and find the chiastic elements yourself. Plus, if chiasmus proves the BofM is true than those that feel that way should be Strangites--not Utah Mormons--since Strangites believe in the BofM and Strang's book (which also contains supposed chiasms).
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Posted by: Martin ®
01/12/2002, 00:15:52
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But was Chris arguing that chiasmus proved the BoM was true? It seemed to me he was arguing just the reverse. Not that I dispute your comments about FARMS, of course.
- Martin
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Posted by: rpcman ®
01/12/2002, 00:38:07
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But was Chris arguing that chiasmus proved the BoM was true? No. When I said "if chiasmus proves the BofM is true..." I was rhetorically taking the position of apologists--not Chris's position.
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Posted by: Nevo ®
01/08/2002, 16:45:38
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I appreciate your high opinion of Joseph Smith, but I find your explanation quite implausible. You suggest that Joseph's "extraordinary intellect" enabled him not only to discover chiasmus in the Bible, but to create his own subtle and intricate chiasms extemporaneously as he dictated the Book of Mormon--even though virtually no one at the time knew anything about chiasmus. (Perhaps he foresaw that his painstaking care in imitating ancient Semitic literary forms would eventually pay off - although it wasn't discovered until 1968). Yet despite Joseph superior intellectual gifts, he seems not to have noticed that the manuscript contained echoes of upstate New York dialect (including, "they was yet wroth [1 Nephi 4:4]," "the armies of the Lamanites are a marching towards the city of Cumeni [Alma 57:31]," and "this shall be your language in them days [Helaman 13:37]"). It is also remarkable that Joseph Smith kept his prodigious intellect such a closely-guarded secret. Indeed he must have "carefully fostered the myth of his illiteracy" because no one suspected otherwise - not his parents or siblings, not his wife, not his friends. W.W. Phelps, who had met Joseph two weeks previous, described him in a January 1831 letter to E.D. Howe as "a person of very limited abilities in common learning." This assessment was shared by friend and foe alike. His father-in-law described him as "not very well educated"; none of his neighbors remembered him as bookish; rather, they described him as "a dull scholar" and "quite illiterate" (see H. Michael Marquardt and Wesley P. Walters, Inventing Mormonism: Tradition and the Historical Record [San Francisco: Smith Research Associates, 1994], 43-44). Of course, Joseph was not exactly illiterate. As the following 1831 letter demonstrates, he did possess rudimentary writing skills: Brother Hyramwe arived here safe and are all well I hav been engageed in regulating the Churches here as the deciples are numerous and the devil has made many attmpts to over throw them it has been a serious Job but the Lord is with us and we have overcome and have all things regular the work is brakeing forth on the hand and on the left and there is a great Call for Elders in this place we hav recieved a leter from Olover dated independence Jackson County Missouri Janua=ry the 29th 1831... I had much Concirn about you but I always remember you in your prayers Calling upon god to keep Safe in spite men or devils I think had better Come into this Country immediately for the Lord has Comm=anded us that we should Call the Elders of this Chursh to gether unto this plase as soon as possable March forth this morning after being Colled out of my bed in the night to go a small distance I went and had and an awful strugle with satan being armed with the power of god he was cast out and the woman is Clothed in hir right mind the Lord worketh wonders in this land I want to see you all may the grace of God be and abide with you all even so Amen your Brother forever
Joseph Smith Jr I am inclined to credit Emma's statement that "Joseph Smith could neither write nor dictate a coherent and well-worded letter; let alone dictating a book like the Book of Mormon." I find it highly improbable that Joseph Smith wrote the Book of Mormon unaided.
Modified by Nevo at Tue, Jan 08, 2002, 16:49:31
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Posted by: rpcman ®
01/08/2002, 17:54:00
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So do you believe that Joseph Smith wrote the BofM or translated it, Nevo? And if your think he wrote it, who do you think helped him? Cowdrey? Rigdon? Someone else? BTW, I completely agree with your analysis.
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Posted by: Nevo ®
01/08/2002, 21:22:16
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The question of Book of Mormon authorship is a difficult one. As a believer, I am inclined to favor Blake Ostler's explanation of the Book of Mormon as a modern expansion of an ancient source. This explanation has the advantage of accounting for the modern elements in the text, without compromising the book's status as revealed scripture. Were I disposed to view the Book of Mormon as a 19th-century invention, I would still posit Joseph Smith as the primary author. I think Brent Metcalfe's analysis of the transition from "therefore" to "wherefore" (and "whosoever" and "whoso") supplies persuasive evidence against multiple authorship, or literary dependence on other 19th-century sources. As Metcalfe notes, "If Smith copied from other literature one might anticipate detectable interruptions in the "therefore"/"wherefore" pattern, similar to those caused by the KJV. But this does not occur." There are also a number of "autobiographical echoes" in the text which point to Smith's influence on the text. Robert Anderson lists a number of these in his book Inside the Mind of Joseph Smith: Psychobiography and the Book of Mormon. In this view, Joseph Smith could have derived inspiration from Ethan Smith, Elias Boudinot, and James Adair for his account of Indian origins; he could have drawn from revivalist sermons for his theological ideas; antimasonry and classical republicanism for his political ideas... Of course, in this view, the chiastic structures; hebraisms (e.g. "if/and" constructions); the resemblance of Mosiah 1-6 to a Near Eastern coronation and covenant-renewal ceremony; the name "Alma" given to a Jewish male; the throne theophany in Lehi's call narrative; the detailed description of ancient Mediterranean olive culture in Jacob 5; the type-scenes and dense allusions to the Old Testament, etc., are purely coincidental.
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Posted by: sansfoy ®
01/09/2002, 06:00:10
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An interesting post. As a published member of the science fiction writers of America, I have both and less respect for the Book of Mormon than many others. On the one hand, not everybody can write a book and there is no question that it is a complex narrative, with dozens of characters and multiple plot threads. Whoever wrote the Book of Mormon had a definite creative genious. On the other hand, if this particular work went through my writing group, with a stated goal of imitating an ancient document, the writer would be raked over the coals for all of the anachronisms, for the lack of specific and believable detail, and for the generally boring nature of the work. It's hard to believe that a condensed version of hundreds of years of history could not be more interesting on a chapter by chapter basis than the Book of Mormon.
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Posted by: sansfoy ®
01/09/2002, 20:17:01
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It isn't a sexy romance novel you by at the grocery store, sorry. It isn't for entertainment. Strange, that's not what Joseph thought when he was trying to sell the copyright for money with himself listed as author. You are missing my point, oddly enough. A book that purports to be a condensation of hundreds of years of history rambles and repeats itself in obvious need of a good editor.
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Posted by: AHF ®
01/09/2002, 00:38:23
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Interesting that chapters of Isaiah that are quoted in 2 Nephi are almost verbatum from the KJV of the Bible (with some exceptions). What do you think of that?
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Posted by: Martin ®
01/12/2002, 00:19:20
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... to simply lurk quietly in discussions that are over my head! I will humbly shut up now.
- Martin
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Posted by: Martin ®
01/12/2002, 00:12:33
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Sorry for such a trivial reply, but I want to express my thanks to you for posting such an interesting and well-written contribution!
- Martin
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