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Posted by: Diehl ® 03/10/2002, 21:47:31 Author Profile Mail author |
"...Think of the endless cruelties visited by the inhabitants of one corner of this pixel on the scarcely distinguishable inhabitants of some other corner, how frequent their misunderstandings, how eager they are to kill one another, how fervent their hatreds" - Carl Sagan Am I the only one who thinks the tone of a vast majority of the posters is overly negative and resentful? I know you have the right to say what you want, and to defend your beliefs. But many of the posts get extremely critical and acrid. IMHO can't we try to be a bit more civil? I know this is a bit of hypocrisy on my part, but we are all guilty of it.
Now, this isn't becasue i don't agree with your views (many of you have very valid points, that i agree with), but I cannot condone your bevaior even if a agree with what you have to say. You seem similar to be bickering children... "Our posturings, our imagined self-importance, the delusion that we have some privileged position in the Universe, are challenged by this point of pale light. Our planet is a lonely speck in the great enveloping cosmic dark. In our obscurity, in all this vastness, there is no hint that help will come from elsewhere to save us from ourselves."
Just out of curiosity how old are you? (Also what gender?) FYI: I'm a 17 y/o male |
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Re: ...how fervent their hatreds Re: ...how fervent their hatreds -- Diehl Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Martin ®
03/10/2002, 22:55:15
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Diehl, I appreciate your careful circumlocution in the effort to avoid naming the people you were referring to by name, but I am not so thin-skinned that you can't mention me by name as most probably the number one target you had in mind.
This is one of those subjects which reappear on a fairly frequent schedule and it is clearly time once again for me to explain my admittedly blunt and even insulting persona on this board...
Should people strive to remain polite, good-natured, and circumspect in their personal interactions? Certainly yes... for the most part!
But public fora such as these offer a new and unique context for communication that differs from all others. It is, for example, an exciting and unique combination of direct personal communication and "broadcast" communication. That is, not only are messages directed to the specific, named target, but they are also open public communiques that speak to everyone visiting the forum, including those who are not directly involved but simply "lurk" through a discussion.
Also, the anonymity of participants plays a role in that we can speak to an anonymous virtual persona in ways that we would never dream of doing in personal, non-anonymous communications. While this is assuredly not altogether a positive distinction, it is nevertheless a fact. However, this freedom to speak one's mind directly and bluntly can be seen to be mostly positive. Why? Because human nature is such that we are more comfortable speaking the truth if we can be less reserved and if we feel that we, personally, will not suffer dire social or physical consequences for speaking what we hold to be the truth.
And anything that increases our ability to speak honestly and frankly can only aid in facilitating true human communication. Imagine just having the ability in 1930's Germany to be able to anonymously post your opinion to potentially millions of your fellow citizens that Hitler was a self-deluded, insane, xenophobic, homicidal, lunatic crackpot!
Following up the lead of that last idea, how effective would it have been if that person had instead meekly written: "With deep respect to my dear friends and brothers in brown shirts, I find that I am a bit reticent to fully credit one or two of Chancellor Hitler's recent observations"?
I guess what I'm saying is that politeness and courtesy certainly have their place (a great many places, in fact), yet in some circumstances stronger language may be called for.
As for my specific case, I take advantage of many of the unique opportunities such a medium provides. One such instance is that knowing that my words will be read not only by the direct recipient but also an unknown number of readers and lurkers (i.e., the broadcast nature of a forum), I respond to the WORDS and IDEAS in the post I'm replying to rather than solely the person who crafted them. So when, for example, I argue fiercely and often insultingly against Zoe's posts, I am writing not so much to Zoe herself, but rather to all people who think like Zoe and might actually credit her arguments. It is more than the fact that I don't want there to be any doubt as to what I think; more important to me is that false claims along with sloppy concepts, ideas, and arguments must be strongly opposed for the good of all.
Finally, as I have remarked many times now, there is a tremendous wealth of enormously intelligent, kind, good-natured, and gently articulate posters here who outnumber loud, angry curmudgeons like myself by more than an order of magnitude, and who can more than counterbalance my blunt, direct style. I have implicitly bequeathed the role of calm, level-headed sage to all those very admirable people here who are polite and courteous by nature and have the patience to deal with outrageous nonsense without hostility. But I am not such a person.
And as much as I admire and respect such people, what would be the point of my joining their ranks? Isn't there room for some fire (flame, if you will) in the mix?
One thing you can say about me: I'm not often dull! And I've been told by a few people that helping to keep things hopping around here is good for the vitality of the board.
So in the end, Diehl, don't fret over what you can't change. But please feel free to ignore my posts if you like; I won't hold a grudge!
- Martin the Meanie
Modified by Martin at Sun, Mar 10, 2002, 22:56:51
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Lurking, but laughing! Re: Re: ...how fervent their hatreds -- Martin Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Çhâñgelîñg ®
03/11/2002, 05:48:03
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Don't be too hard on yourself Martin? :~) You write with a passion, and that of commitment to your own mind's interpretation of your truth. All us lurkers would greatly miss you, and my wooden leg would continuously drop off with boredom if only the fundies were left here. An admirer ---->
Uploaded file _@.gif)
Modified by Çhâñgelîñg at Mon, Mar 11, 2002, 05:49:54
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Re: ...how fervent their hatreds Re: ...how fervent their hatreds -- Diehl Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Christopher ®
03/11/2002, 04:07:28
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You know, I really wish I started thinking more about things when I was younger. I don't think I had an opinion on anything until years after high school. Good for you! Speaking of not having an opinion, the issue of contention on this board is one I labor over without much headway. I am forever ambivalent about it. Speaking of Martin in particular--how's it going, Martin--if it came down to Martin as is vs. no Martin at all, I wouldn't hesitate to cast my vote to keep him around. Over the past couple of years I've mostly been a lurker (anyone heard from Gregory Relf?), and Martin's posts are always educating, truly. I may wish he could be more respectful and less intimidating, but what can you do? I might enjoy reading Martin, The Vines, et al debating with Zoe, mikwut, et al with more mutual respect, but I also wonder if that is really possible--these are such charged issues, how would it go? Maybe the key word is "more" (civility).
That said, I myself have also talked it up a little here and there, and I hope I haven't offended anyone too greatly. To mikwut in particular--while I may not agree with much of what you say, you have clearly put a lot of time into thinking about these things, and it would be pretentious of me to dismiss too quickly your points, fledgling that I am! Sorry to deride your batting abilities.
I hope I have successfully conveyed my ambivalence.
Chris
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I appreciate your post, Diehl Re: ...how fervent their hatreds -- Diehl Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Gunnar ®
03/17/2002, 06:28:49
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I too have expressed concern on occasion about the abrasiveness of some of the regular posters, including Martin, but that's his style--like it or not. I'm with Christopher and Changeling, though. I would much rather have Martin as he is than not have him at all. I have learned much from him. He knows a great deal and is not at all bashful about forcefully expressing what he knows and believes. Yet he acknowledges that he is not omniscient, and I have seen him graciously admit to and apologize for being mistaken on occasion, or for misinterpreting what someone else said. I have also seen him praise certain opponents even while disagreeing with them, and have seen him eloquently express compassion and concern for others. I feel privileged to be numbered among his friends, some of whom are people who seldom agree with him on this forum. I would surely find this forum less interesting without him. One of his admirable qualities is that when he has something good to say about you, you know he truly means it!
Gunnar
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Just as I appreciate YOUR post, Gunnar! Re: I appreciate your post, Diehl -- Gunnar Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Martin ®
03/17/2002, 22:53:58
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Gunnar, my noble friend! I humbly thank you. It is a pleasure and an honor to be so insightfully and keenly understood! Especially in your final sentence, the truth of which I hope is understood by all.
A good example is the dynamic interaction between Vicki and myself, who have often engaged in particularly fierce debate. Even so, I like and admire and respect her enormously! We know each other well enough for her to know that because I strive to be scrupulously honest with her and pull no punches in debate, she can be entirely confident that my friendship and admiration and love is completely and unshakably real, even when we strongly disagree!
I am grateful for ALL of your words in your post, Gunnar, including the mild chastisement on my style, which is more than justified. As you know, my friend, I have never denied the churlishness which I too often reveal in many of my replies. And as you also know as well, I am not proud of this fact. This part of my persona does not spring from pride, but rather from the annoyance I can't help but feel when I read a post I consider to be disingenuous, unjustified, or evasive.
Yet even so, I criticize myself for such at times, and just as often I wish I were more capable of the kind of kind but earnestly honest approach which is your hallmark here! The great depth and profundity of your humanity and inner moral courage has been revealed before on these boards; in respect to your family life and other personal details, and you know of the enormous admiration, respect, and even simple human love I feel even for the person behind the persona you reveal on the board!
But as you say, that simply isn't me (more accurately, not my persona here). But even so, I wish to emphasize to others that I do NOT consider my approach better in any way than that of all the gentle but honest people here! Just different. And as such, it represents a different perspective and approach to issues. But just as not all of us can sing in a choir or play the violin, not all of us are well suited to filling the demands of the admirable role I and I'm sure all of us consider you to uphold so laudably, Gunnar!
The world is big, even with the Internet. And as the old if somewhat threadbare adage has it: It takes all kinds.
In continuing admiration and deep respect,
- Martin
p.s.: While the built-in HTML feature is probably quite useful to many, I wish it could be turned off on a per-user basis. Even if you try to post as "text", the HTML processor messes things up anyway! Please forgive the triple (quadruple?) spaced paragraphs since I don't know how to turn them off.p.p.s: I guess I figured out how to turn them off after all! You just open up your original post and paste in what you'd written in the first place.
Modified by Martin at Sun, Mar 17, 2002, 23:10:46
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Thank you Martin! Re: Just as I appreciate YOUR post, Gunnar! -- Martin Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Gunnar ®
03/18/2002, 01:27:29
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Coming from you, those kind words meant an awful lot to me. I certainly strive to be honest and courteous, but I am always surprised to find myself being characterized by others as "courageous." I have never regarded myself as particularly courageous.
Highest regards;
Gunnar
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