Posted by: Bahman ®
03/18/2003, 19:53:00
Author Profile Mail author
|
You are asking so many questions to speculate on, from a man who has got a bad record??!!
Modified by Bahman at Tue, Mar 18, 2003, 19:54:16
|
Posted by: JAK ®
03/18/2003, 21:30:36
Author Profile Mail author
|
The war is going to happen. The stock market will rise. Oil will become less expensive at least in the short term.Many will die. Did I mention that? JAK
|
Posted by: Gunnar ®
03/21/2003, 22:42:17
Author Profile Mail author
|
. . .that many Iraqis have already died due to that murderous despot, Saddam Hussein--at least as many, and very likely many more than are likely to die as a result of coalition military action. Would it be less of a tragedy if this madman and his sons remain free to continue this sadistic barbarity with complete impunity?I hate war, and I fear the possible consequences that may result from it, but I hate the atrocities and injustices Saddam's regime has imposed on his own people at least as much. Whatever else happens, the elimination of that regime will be one undeniably positive outcome, if that indeed occurs. I tend to doubt that the Iraqi people are really as unready for democracy as some detractors of Bush's policies and goals seem to think. By many accounts, they are or were a fairly enlightened and sophisticated people, compared to some other Arab groups. To so vehemently insist, as some do, that they can't handle freedom and democracy without a lengthy period of transition and learning is at least mildly insulting to them. I'm sure that many Iraqi expatriots currently living outside of Iraq would agree with that. Gunnar
|
Posted by: JAK ®
03/22/2003, 20:20:24
Author Profile Mail author
|
Gunnar,Good points, all. 6 billion people on the planet seems most too many. I don’t mean that as defense for war. I mean it literally. The closer people get or are forced to live, the greater diminished the quality of life. The slums of large cities might be a good illustration. Increasing population and diminishing energy supply equal conflict. However, if the Bush administration/military find few WMD, the stated reason for all this bombing to take Iraq will be seen by many throughout the world as a sham. I suspect it was even if WMD are found. What are military troops working hardest to protect? The oil fields. Halliburton is already under government contract to go in when it is safe. Who headed Halliburton? Vice President Cheney. I suspect that secretly a number of people are pleased that Saddam Hussein did not elect to take exile. Had he done so, attack of Iraq would have received even greater opposition. And when military attacks (preemptive attacks) cease, who will manage the business of Iraq...until a new “regime” can be established which meets with the approval of the U.S.? JAK
Modified by JAK at Sat, Mar 22, 2003, 20:22:30
|
Posted by: Bahman ®
03/18/2003, 22:38:47
Author Profile Mail author
|
I just noticed what you said at the end of your post, wow!
Because of that, between you and me, I am secretely hoping that in the next day or two, something drastic (like a coup) may happen in Iraq which could change a lot of things! (You see, I have nothing more to lose, I've lost all my credibility!)
|
Posted by: JAK ®
03/18/2003, 22:59:28
Author Profile Mail author
|
Bahman,You have your honor, your sincere desire for peaceful resolution. Throughout history, there have been many with better solutions than the ones which were implement. You know about history repeating. It may but always with variation. I only wish, like you, that war where thousands will likely die could have been avoided.
JAK
|
Posted by: Victoria! ®
03/20/2003, 00:36:54
Author Profile Mail author
|
Bahman, Perhaps you are right. Perhaps Saddam's inner circle will give him up*. I don't recall your losing your credibility and certainly not all of it. Not to worry. You are in the good company of liars, deniars, bubble heads and busy bodies. Welcome to our happy "home". Was that bad form? Sue me. Victoria
;-) * "give him up"- betray him :)
Modified by Victoria! at Thu, Mar 20, 2003, 00:38:40
|
Posted by: JAK ®
03/19/2003, 19:38:34
Author Profile Mail author
|
No, No. Not the U.N. Go for President of the United States. That’s where the power is. Just watch the next couple of days and weeks.You are connected to the rich, powerful, famous, and you have a health plan like no others. You will love it! JAK
|
Posted by: Bahman ®
03/19/2003, 19:59:42
Author Profile Mail author
|
"You are connected to the rich, powerful, famous, and you have a health plan like no others. You will love it!"Nope. I don't know what to do with all that, do you?!
|
Posted by: JAK ®
03/19/2003, 20:27:12
Author Profile Mail author
|
If you were President, you would be connected. You say you wouldn’t know what to do with all that, yes? I think you would. But all the pressure of BEING President might put you at risk. OK, if you don’t want to be President of the U.S., we will let you off. But keep in mind that you don’t even need to get the most popular votes to become President of the U.S. :-) JAK
|
Posted by: Victoria! ®
03/19/2003, 21:08:34
Author Profile Mail author
|
Dear JAK and Bahman, I just stopped in to check email and the board. In the background the TV is reporting on Bagdad. The President is scheduled to "address the nation" in just a short while. We all know what this means and none of us should be surprised. I know someone who is THERE in the midst. I have a sinking feeling in my gut....just for the record. So what? We're going to bomb the living hell out of Bagdad, a city of 1 million people. Will innocents die? Count on it. Will we get Saddam and if we do how will we ever confirm it? What about his sons? Will we get them too and how will we know? Will Saddam go out on a blaze of "glory" destroying damns and buring Iraqi oil fields, destroying his country? What have we to do? Take a deep breath and wait...believers, pray. What is there to hope for? That our military hits hard, hits fast and precisely. Victoria
Modified by Victoria! at Wed, Mar 19, 2003, 21:20:05
|
Posted by: JAK ®
03/19/2003, 21:21:15
Author Profile Mail author
|
Yes Victoria,It does not look good for the people of Baghdad who were unable to leave. In the last days, the cost per person to get out of Baghdad was put at $1,200. Those with that could buy their way out. The poor will have to remain in Baghdad. Population of that city six million In the south of Iraq, it may be death and mayhem. JAK
|
Posted by: ramona ®
03/19/2003, 21:24:31
Author Profile Mail author
|
Or so it already sounds.Ramona May God have mercy on our souls.
|
Posted by: JAK ®
03/19/2003, 21:36:55
Author Profile Mail author
|
The President now speaking.The hope is that civilian causalities might be minimized. A surprise strike may have taken out high level Iraqi officials. JAK
|
Posted by: Victoria! ®
03/20/2003, 00:21:05
Author Profile Mail author
|
almost sounds like a lead in to a poem, doesn't it? Ramona, I have to say that in my prayer last night I was almost at a loss as to what to pray for. Safety of our troops? Impossible. Safety for innocents? Impossible. I finally concluded that the only thing I could pray for, since the toothpaste is quite obviously out of the tube, was the decisiveness of our military leaders, wisdom for our president, and the precision of our troops. Wisdom too, for Saddam. Yes, God have mercy on our world. Victoria
Modified by Victoria! at Thu, Mar 20, 2003, 00:21:39
|
Posted by: Victoria! ®
03/20/2003, 14:29:08
Author Profile Mail author
|
The sound of war is a kiss on the flightline with engines whirring in distance, "Take care of Mommy", "I love you Daddy", the sound of tears rolling down your cheeks and your heart breaking in pieces.
|
Posted by: JAK ®
03/20/2003, 16:39:08
Author Profile Mail author
|
Victoria,I want to agree with all your hopes here. But, WE humans are in charge of the war as we are in charge of all other human endeavors. When 6 million Jews were exterminated by Hitler, Hitler the man was responsible along with those who carried out his orders. The self-hypnotic effect of praying many give one a good feeling. But except for what one does directly, the praying is irrelevant. As we come into the 21st Century, we need to assume responsibility for our actions. (I am not talking about you at all in connection with this war.) “WE” includes all of us in the human race as we plan, plan to act, and actually carry out those plans. The safety of those in the path of weapons are jeopardized by the plans and execution of those plans. Conversely the risk, danger, and threat to human life is also under the control of human plans and the execution of those plans. While we like attachment to the past, to ancient mythology, the fact is that humans themselves hold in their hands their own survival. Mythological “God” concepts are of no benefit. Disorder an chaos on this planet of scientific certainties are under the control of humans to a large extent. We cannot control the weather (CO and WY have demonstrated this in the past few days), but we can control policies which bring death or chaos on other humans. Malnutrition, disease, and death by designed weapons are to a large degree in the control of the humans who have capacities to alter those things. It is important to recognize the human potential to bring benefit or disadvantage to the human race lies not with the gods, not with God, but with human application of information and knowledge humans possess at the moment. And the moment along with the capacities to apply information and knowledge changes as time passes and humans continue to evolve in their capacity to control. The mythology of man’s capacity to manipulate God should be put aside in favor of that which has real capacity to improve the quality of human life. JAK
|
Posted by: JAK ®
03/20/2003, 17:08:06
Author Profile Mail author
|
Ramona,A cliché for which there is no evidence. During Hitler’s success and the extermination of 6 million Jews, he thought that “God” was helping him to make the race pure. He believed, he prayed, and he succeeded for a time. People say thank God for anything which the get that which they wanted. They also entertain the notion that God helped. The more unusual, the more they apply God myth. That is, when the result is in THEIR favor. When it goes against them, they have other escape hatches for why. JAK
Modified by JAK at Thu, Mar 20, 2003, 17:09:29
|
Posted by: ramona ®
03/20/2003, 18:25:19
Author Profile Mail author
|
JAK<I thought you would like it for the "irrelavance" that it expresses. Ramona
|
Posted by: Gunnar ®
03/21/2003, 23:51:59
Author Profile Mail author
|
I agree that there is no proof that "God helps those who help themselves," but it is often true that people with a strong belief in God will accomplish difficult tasks (both noble and ignoble) that they would not have attempted, had they not believed that God would help them accomplish them. So even if there is no real God to help them, their belief that there is can inspire them them to make the attempt, when they might otherwise not have. Obviously one can not accomplish something one is not sufficiently motivated to attempt, whatever the reason for such motivation or lack of it. Though it may not be true that "God helps those who help themselves," it is not unreasonable to suggest that belief in God often helps those who help themselves.Gunnar
Modified by Gunnar at Sat, Mar 22, 2003, 10:16:41
|
Posted by: JAK ®
03/22/2003, 23:11:57
Author Profile Mail author
|
Gunnar,The parenthetical phrase is more important than your post suggests. It is “both noble and ignoble.” Hitler who believed in God and prayed to God comes to mind. Motivation is the real key, not religion. JAK
|
Posted by: Gunnar ®
03/23/2003, 19:50:39
Author Profile Mail author
|
I agree with you about the importance of that parenthetical phrase. That's why I put it in there! I couldn't agree with you more that religious faith can and often does motivate ignoble, as well as noble accomplishments. The tragedy of 9/11 is another prime example of that. That is the main pitfall of religious faith, untempered by sound evidence and reason.Gunnar
|
Posted by: JAK ®
03/23/2003, 20:25:00
Author Profile Mail author
|
It certainly is a “pitfall.” In addition, religion blocks the road to reason, to investigation, and to discovery of fact. The path to “sound evidence and reason” is not a path which religious doctrine can tolerate. Yielding to those two factors requires religion to relinquish the very core of what it is. Religion tempered by sound evidence and reason would lose its identity. JAK
|
Posted by: Victoria! ®
03/20/2003, 00:17:20
Author Profile Mail author
|
Hello JAK, I thought the population of Baghdad was 1 million. No matter. You are most certainly right. Those with money could easily buy their way out. I assume there are not many in that category though. I just returned to the board from watching a broad cast from Saddam. Apparently the "regime targets" did not include him. One of the issues riding around in the back of my mind (where there is more room:) is that if Iraq is found NOT to have WMD, our own president will be viewed as the new "Saddam". I heard there were Iraqi troops to the south equipped with chemical weapons. As we say back east (and I'll clean it up for you ;) that kind of puts Saddam's "stuff" in the street already. Victoria
;-) p.s. There are several 6 foot snow drifts in my driveway...those are my cars. The little yellow snow plow got stuck three times today working overtime. Blizzard, three feet on the ground...and the mailbox is nowhere to be found. Let it snow!
|
Posted by: JAK ®
03/20/2003, 21:11:47
Author Profile Mail author
|
Victoria,I like your snow attitude. If our military does not find WMD, they may have to invent them. What could be worse than invasion of a country because its leader had WMD and to find none? They had better get Saddam also. And there had better be real evidence that they did get him. To come away and just say, We think we got him would look bad for those of us who like to see evidence. In spite of all the religion in America, if Bush comes to the American people and just says, We pray we got Saddam, the people (even religious people) won’t like it. On another note, watching along with you, something occurs to me. Perhaps a reason we have not seen more massive bombing as was promised by Rumsfeld in the phrase “shock and awe,” is this: The administration KNOWS there is really only limited support for this war. Oh, they claim we have 45 countries. But only a handful of them are contributing much of their own resources. So, knowing there is limited support, fewer deaths in Iraq gives much incentive for the military planners. The more innocents U.S. bombs kill, the less support we will have AFTER the bombing stops. We need support. We will want all the help the U.N. can give to clean up the damage U.S. & British bombing caused. We will want the good will of the U.N. even though the Bush administration showed little respect for the U.N. as it invaded Iraq with a preemptive strike. We will want the good will of France as well. Perhaps the U.S. military is waiting for some indication that Saddam is really gone or that the Republican Guard is giving up. If they could get either or both of those, the bombing could stop or be greatly diminished, the cities could be taken by relatively peaceful means even with the military tanks, planes, etc. I know war is not exactly your cup of tea. I was thinking of all the definitions we could find for war. I won’t start, but there are many ideas for war, what it is, what it says about people, etc. There are also many ideas on what it really means to win a war. We might say, a nation has NOT won the war unless it wins the peace. Winning the peace may prove far more costly than winning the war. Now if I had six foot snow drifts and if those drifts were my cars, even the international predicament would play second to the drifts/cars. What is the matter with you people out there...haven’t you heard of a garage? That is a little home where cars should be when it snows three feet. And that little home for cars is ATTACHED to the house where the people live. So even if you couldn’t get the cars out of the garage now, after the snow is cleared away by the “little yellow snow plows,” you could just drive out of the car-house (garage). The cars would thank you too. Meanwhile...back to the war... JAK
Modified by JAK at Thu, Mar 20, 2003, 22:07:03
|
Posted by: Victoria! ®
03/21/2003, 23:39:46
Author Profile Mail author
|
Hello JAK,
The mountain mama has a little house attached to the big house. The little house is full of cars. The driveway is full of cars. The field is full of cars. The little yellow snow plow is mounted on what I affectionately refer to as a 4 wheel drive "Japanese suicide car"--but it does the job. We are free! Now on to war matters. I don't understand why you and TLC doubt the "shock and awe" would be delivered. It obviously is underway. The "shock and awe" was not delivered at the start...not because there isn't alot of support for the war--but for strategies sake. Further, I don't understand why you think (or asserted :) that our military would modify goals on account of "opinion". There are 250K troops over there, a boat load of Bradley's, Abrams, aircraft of various kinds, aircraft carriers, bombs out the wazu...do you honestly think Uncle wouldn't USE them? Of course we will...and are. Lastly, what makes you think that war isn't my "cup of tea"? You assume without asking. What is wrong with men that makes them so afraid to ask for directions ;-)! Victoria
Modified by Victoria! at Fri, Mar 21, 2003, 23:43:22
|
Posted by: JAK ®
03/22/2003, 23:32:58
Author Profile Mail author
|
Your middle paragraph does not follow my comment. I can’t speak for TLC, but your inference does not reflect my comments just above. I stated:
Perhaps the U.S. military is waiting for some indication that Saddam is really gone or that the Republican Guard is giving up. If they could get either or both of those, the bombing could stop or be greatly diminished, the cities could be taken by relatively peaceful means even with the military tanks, planes, etc. It would appear that so far, this giving up has not happened. There is no question that “shock and awe” will be the result in the context of dropping thousands of bombs on a city. For those who are killed, the shock and awe will be irrelevant. The first rule of military strategy is deception and surprise. The second one is devastation and demoralization. JAK
Modified by JAK at Sat, Mar 22, 2003, 23:33:44
|
Posted by: Gunnar ®
03/21/2003, 23:24:20
Author Profile Mail author
|
If the accounts I have been hearing are true, the people in the south of Iraq are welcoming and cheering the coalition forces as liberators, and eagerly tearing down Saddam Hussein posters and banners! What is this death and mayhem you are talking about?Besides that, the coalition forces have already successfully secured the oil fields in the south, and prevented a massive, ecologically disastrous dumping of crude oil into the Persian Gulf like Hussein did during desert storm. Somewhat perplexed; Gunnar
Modified by Gunnar at Sat, Mar 22, 2003, 10:22:55
|
Posted by: Victoria! ®
03/21/2003, 23:47:38
Author Profile Mail author
|
South of Baghdad is nothing but sand and oil wells so far as I can see. Various divisions as one travels north toward Baghdad. There is no mayhem. Heck, at this point there is little evidence of mayhem in central Baghdad! The 51st division surrendered. It is, according to reports, believed that the 11th (?) will surrender as well. The 3rd ID is working its way up the west side. They may encounter resistance as they get closer to Baghdad. If there is a right way to go at this, Uncle is doing it.Victoria
Modified by Victoria! at Sat, Mar 22, 2003, 00:56:28
|
Posted by: TLC ®
03/20/2003, 07:25:40
Author Profile Mail author
|
Hi Vicki; I had the news channels on all night in anticipation of witnessing the hereto expected awsome massive invasion as we all were told and expected.It started off rather subdued in comparison. I hear Bush, with last minute information, decided very wisely I think, to try and take Saddam out. I think they probably missed him. They are not sure. Too bad!! This action would have the potential of saving thousands of lives. I also monitored the weather channel and wonder if you have enough food and supplies, considering the massive invasion of snow that Denver is receiving.
Our snow in Michigan is all gone now. I will be thinking of you as I am doing yard work today. Spring is right around the corner, TLC
|
Posted by: Victoria! ®
03/20/2003, 13:09:20
Author Profile Mail author
|
Hi Terry, The missles dropped on Baghdad yesterday were an attempt at a surgical strike. The shock and awe will come. Stay tuned if you can stomach it. Victoria
|
Posted by: TLC ®
03/22/2003, 07:48:52
Author Profile Mail author
|
Hi Vicki; While any single death is a tragedy, I am pleased that the numbers of casualties (both sides), so far, are amazingly low and we should thank our military precision and surgical strike capabilities for this. Our technology is awesome. This is the "Awe" part for me, and I am very thankful. Even in this case , most the allied casualties have resulted from mechanical equipment failure.But no shock for me. I"ll tell you what real shock is: 3000 American dead at Omaha beach on the first day (June 6, 1944) saving France's ass from the Nazis. 35,000 German civilians incinerated in Dresden by the RAF on the night of Feb. 14, 1944. And what happened on Aug. 6 and 8, 1945 in Japan? Shocking? If Baghdad resembled the pictures of Berlin that I have seen after allied bombing in May, 1945, then I would be genuinely shocked indeed. Compared to the above historical events, I would have a higher chance of being hurt on a boy scout outing, than in "Operation Iraqi Freedom". May we all hope that the trend of low casualties continues. Terry
|
|
