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Posted by: JAK ® 02/01/2003, 09:09:18 Author Profile Mail author |
After 28 missions since 1981, the space shuttle ends its service over Texas. A human tragedy and a national one. All of American science is looking for cause. It will examine every detail it can find. What will it mean to the humans who are struck by U.S. bombs should the Bush Administration decide (with or without the United Nations) to drop those bombs on historical places in Iraq and on the people? How will the lives of the survivors be destroyed by the bombing of Iraq? This is not to minimize the impact of the tragedy today for the lives of families with loved ones on the shuttle. Rather, to amplify that tragedy in which people are killed reverberates globally today, thanks to instant communication of fact.
Modified by JAK at Sat, Feb 01, 2003, 09:11:53 |
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Re: The Columbia Shuttle Tragedy Re: The Columbia Shuttle Tragedy -- JAK Top of thread Archive
Posted by: TLC ®
02/01/2003, 09:38:16
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TLC
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Re: sick at the news Re: Re: The Columbia Shuttle Tragedy -- TLC Top of thread Archive
Posted by: JAK ®
02/01/2003, 11:08:56
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It seems a fact we should recognize. If Bush decides to kill people, lots of people to “get” Saddam Hussein, many humans will grieve at the deaths of THEIR brothers, sisters, husbands, friends, and fellow country-men.
I think the prospect of purposeful heaping of death and destruction on a country should make us sick as well.
I do not minimize the tragedy for America in this.
The shuttle was an experimental vehicle right on the edge of successful technology. The risks in space work are enormous.
JAK
Modified by JAK at Sat, Feb 01, 2003, 11:19:57
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Still sick!! Re: Re: sick at the news -- JAK Top of thread Archive
Posted by: TLC ®
02/02/2003, 08:30:09
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Palistinians, also,were rejoicing at the news of the death of the first Israeli astronaut.Can you even imagine Americans or Israelis celebrating the deaths of an Iraqi or Palestinian astronaut?
TLC
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Re: Still sick!! Re: Still sick!! -- TLC Top of thread Archive
Posted by: rdl ®
02/02/2003, 09:16:22
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Can you even imagine Americans or Israelis celebrating the deaths of an Iraqi or Palestinian astronaut?Not really (or at least not by anyone with a brain) but....
I can easily imagine Iraqi and Palestinian news sources reporting that we are( if such a thing were to happen).**raising an eyebrow in question**
rdl- incidentally, I recall many Americans cheering when the Bombs fell on Iraq the last time...whether they fell on military or civilian locations. In fact, I recall particular cheering when a military target was missed and a civilian target was hit. "serves 'em right" was a sentiment expressed.
regards,
rdl
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Re: Still sick!! Re: Still sick!! -- TLC Top of thread Archive
Posted by: nofaith ®
02/02/2003, 14:10:26
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> deaths of an Iraqi or Palestinian astronaut?I can. I know several people who hate (native) Iraqis with a passion, and *do* celebrate when bad things happen to that country, or others (although I know there are many who reject such an ignorant position).
Your own statement shows that *you* have inclinations towards that point of view: "I'm reluctant to have an overwelming concern for any personal losses they might experience in the event of war." What callousness this displays! Because certain Iraqis celebrated a tragedy of ours, you would withhold sympathy for the deaths of woman and children?
Ask yourself why Iraqis would celebrate our tragedies. Is it possible, at all, that we may have done something to engender such a view?
Make no mistake: I find it disgusting that people would celebrate the loss of life, and I don't appreciate Iraqis cheering when America experiences loss. But America's hatred of Iraq is comparable, and there are *many* who welcome hardship for Iraq's people.
The attacks that we have levied against Iraq, and the sanctions we have placed on them leave them little choice but to think of us as an enemy. Our govt. displays little compassion for the struggles we have forced upon them. Thankfully, there are many Americans who do not blindly accept that all Iraqis are our enemies, and have compassion for the humans that live there. I would wager that the same is true of Iraq: there are some enlightened individuals who realize that not every American hates them.
> Your even mentioning the bombing of Iraq in your post on this
> tragedy makes me even sicker. Show some class!!!Why is it "sick" to mention the loss of life in Iraq when we are talking about loss of life here? Is it because you feel our lives are worth more than theirs? "Show some class," indeed!
Personally, I feel that if there is loss of innocent life in Iraq due to bombing, it is far worse than the Columbia incident, because we will have chosen it. The crash was an accident--but the bombing will be our decision.
-Dan
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Re: Still sick!! Re: Re: Still sick!! -- nofaith Top of thread Archive
Posted by: JAK ®
02/02/2003, 16:31:11
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We Americans with our superior technology and access to information through a free press should be better in a global view than those who have no such access.
Iraqis who may have cheered our deep sense of loss may well be anticipating their own loss of life yet to come from an American led attack on them.
It seems to be a part of human nature to love “our own” most. As members of the nation which is leader of the free world, more Americans should rise to a higher level of appreciation for life, for suffering, and for death.
JAK
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Stupid Re: Still sick!! -- TLC Top of thread Archive
Posted by: james ®
02/04/2003, 16:00:01
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I over reacted in my comments. Re: Still sick!! -- TLC Top of thread Archive
Posted by: TLC ®
02/06/2003, 12:22:29
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Contrary to how I often blatantly come across, I do share most everyone's concern for innocent lives being destroyed anytime, anywhere. I am often guilty of wanting to over simplify a very complicated world.
I often seek awnsers where there might be none and strike out unthinkingly to, somehow ease my sometimes overwhelming concerns for the immense international problems that we are all faced with.
No easy awnsers;
TLC
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Cut yourself some slack, TLC Re: I over reacted in my comments. -- TLC Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Jersey Girl! ®
02/06/2003, 14:35:04
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Cut yourself some slack for being human. Everyone over reacts when faced with new tragedy. Were you on this board when The WTC was hit? The board was a mess for days and so were most of us. You didn't have time to adjust before posting. No one here would blame you for that and consequently, your comments lead to interesting exchanges.
Vicki
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For your consideration Re: The Columbia Shuttle Tragedy -- JAK Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Jersey Girl! ®
02/01/2003, 17:55:46
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I'm still sick and not quite suitable for public consumption but I saw your post and wanted to add something to what you've said concerning Iraq.
The shuttle crew died in service to their country and I do not agree with TLC that your mention of Iraq is out of place. Our military is now deploying to Kuwait in preparation of service to our country. Did you know the average life span of a member of the military in combat is 9-12 minutes? This information shared with me by a military spouse this week.
The tragic event of the shuttle destruction and the deployment of our armed forces to the middle east are not entirely dissimilar. I think what you are saying in your OP and your comments to TLC is that the shuttle crew died under honorable circumstances in service to their country, to us. The lives of their families is forever altered. Likewise, will the lives of armed forces and Iraqi civilians be forever altered should war become reality. Is this avoidable? I think so, I doubt that President Bush will take pains to avoid it and therein lies the frustration. The true tragedy will be in our not seeking other solutions.
I am not entirely political nor am I as well informed as I might be on the issue of Iraq. This is what I know. There was a dramatic shift in the focus of terrorism from Al Quiada to Hussein. Seemingly out of the blue, President Bush brought Iraq to the forefront and has been hell bent on war for months.
I see no evidence, yet, that Hussein is either tied to Al Quiada or has weapons of mass destruction. I don't doubt the potential but the evidence is not present. Meanwhile, N. Korea openly prepares to make nuclear weapons and what? This is secondary to getting Saddam? Are we nuts?
Then there is talk of exile for Saddam. Why so late in the game are we now talking exile? All of this is confusing to me, and seems a tragic waste of resources. Every day there are thousands of troops getting orders to deploy. Their families are dealing with an enormous amount of stress in having to deal with the "unknown", the "ifs", and the "possibility of war". I wonder if President Bush has any idea whatsoever the impact of this uncertainty to the families of service members or are they just seen as "equipment"?
I am rambling. I'll stop.
Vicki
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Re: For your consideration Re: For your consideration -- Jersey Girl! Top of thread Archive
Posted by: JAK ®
02/01/2003, 18:27:38
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A sad irony exists at this point in American history. The phrase “debris raining down from the sky” was used frequently today referring to the disintegrating Columbia. It was and is an American tragedy. No words are adequate to state that.
But, should America drop missiles on Iraq, the raining down of destruction on the ground from the sky will be even more devastating to the lives of those people than this American tragedy is to us. Sad as it is, today’s astronauts who died were doing what they loved for the good of their country. The break-up of the space shuttle was not a deliberate, calculated design to destroy. A preemptive strike will be a deliberate, calculated design to destroy. Having said that, I intend no defense of Saddam Hussein. He is a villain. The men, women, and children who are living in Baghdad or other areas which will certainly be hit by U.S. bombs (should the war come) are going to die or be ruined for the remainder of their lives.
Now keep taking the drugs :-)
JAK
Modified by JAK at Sat, Feb 01, 2003, 21:18:31
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Re: For your consideration Re: Re: For your consideration -- JAK Top of thread Archive
Posted by: grendel ®
02/01/2003, 23:57:08
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this argument alone is not entirely convincing.
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Re: For your consideration Re: Re: For your consideration -- grendel Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Jersey Girl! ®
02/02/2003, 00:41:36
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Is this "possible" military action justified? In what way?
hack, hack,
Vicki
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Re: For your consideration Re: Re: For your consideration -- Jersey Girl! Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Craig C. ®
02/02/2003, 18:49:31
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But how can we know the truth?
Saddam has not provided proof that his previous stockpiles were destroyed. If he is hiding them, how can we know whether his intent is to preserve himself or to atack others? It seems that Saddam loves himself above all else, and it would appear foolish of him to openly attack others. If he did plan to attack others, it would likely be done through shadowy and difficult-to-trace means. Of course, Saddam did attempt to kill the elder Bush, and if he had been successful , the US would have attacked then. This indicates that Saddam has poor judgment of American character or a willingness to take extreme risk with his own life when he is sufficiently incensed.
Much depends on how the Iraqi people respond when an attack begins: will they fight to defend their homeland or will they turn on Saddam and his murderous gang? I suspect that they will be divided.
I believe we will find booby traps, weapons of mass destruction, and bloody urban warfare awaiting in Baghdad.
But I could be wrong.
Craig
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Re: For your consideration Re: Re: For your consideration -- Craig C. Top of thread Archive
Posted by: JAK ®
02/02/2003, 19:36:56
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Suppose you are correct. What then? What kind of patience do Americans have for a long, long stay in Iraq?I suspect Americans are ready for a short conflict which yields quick satisfactory results. When Bush ran, he stated that he was opposed to “nation building.” Can America simply bomb and destroy, then leave?
As war and wars have become better reported and since Viet Nam, American appetite for victorious conquest at higher and higher price to American itself has diminished.
Given the present state of the American economy, the switch from surplus to now $200 billion deficit, I suspect that Americans will increasingly question the costly involvement (lives and wealth) in Iraq. Then there is the matter of North Korea. Where are we going there?
...many imponderables
JAK
Modified by JAK at Sun, Feb 02, 2003, 19:40:16
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Re: For your consideration Re: Re: For your consideration -- JAK Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Craig C. ®
02/02/2003, 22:09:23
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I agree that America will have little patience for a long stay in Iraq if the price is high. This is likely to be the case if for no other reason than that there are many powers in the region that would benefit from a speedy American withdrawl (Iran, in particular). It seems equally likely that Iraqi oil will keep Americans in Iraq for many years. The oil revenues would could greatly facilitate reconstruction.
Iraq does not have nuclear wepons. North Korea does . So with North Korea, the only solution short of nuclear war or another arms race, is diplomacy. Diplomacy could fail. The North Koreans are or soon will be in a position to blackmail or intimidate neighboring countries.
Craig
Modified by Craig C. at Sun, Feb 02, 2003, 22:11:04
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follow the money/oil Re: Re: For your consideration -- Craig C. Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Jersey Girl! ®
02/02/2003, 22:21:09
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I agree with you that American's will not have much patience for a long stay in Iraq however, if war materializes, occupation is a given. US control of the oil industry would pay not only for occupation, reconstruction but for our own military expenditures. Has this not been discussed in recent headlines? I find this somewhat despicable. What will the US do, I wonder, if Iraq destroys its own oil fields? This has also been in the news.
Shall I leave you with a Bible verse? "For the love of money is the root of all evil." Even the ancients acknowledged the concept of "follow the money" or in this case "the oil revenues". The frightening thought for me in all of this is the real possibility that someone is out to make a name for himself and make a buck.
Still sick, hoping this wasn't incoherent,
Vicki
Modified by Jersey Girl! at Sun, Feb 02, 2003, 22:22:39
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Re: follow the money/oil Re: follow the money/oil -- Jersey Girl! Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Craig C. ®
02/02/2003, 23:20:37
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While I personally do not believe that the primary objective of the upcoming war is to seize oil, it is worth considering that because of oil, we supported Saddam while he was gassing his own people, and because of oil, we supported (and continue to support) a corrupt regime in Saudi Arabia.
To maintain power, the current Saudi leadership made a Faustian bargain with the most fanatic of Islamic sects. And now we reap the harvest.
Craig
PS - I hope you get feeling well soon!
Modified by Craig C. at Sun, Feb 02, 2003, 23:22:48
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Re: follow the money/oil Re: Re: follow the money/oil -- Craig C. Top of thread Archive
Posted by: grendel ®
02/02/2003, 23:56:40
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not in my opinion. Re: Re: follow the money/oil -- grendel Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Craig C. ®
02/03/2003, 10:22:56
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Oil has nothing to do with this Re: Re: follow the money/oil -- Craig C. Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Martin ®
02/06/2003, 04:36:28
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I agree with your position, and perhaps take it farther still.
I lost nearly all respect for Nelson Mandela on account of his extraordinarily foolish and uninformed tirade last week in which he claimed that oil was the (or one of the) U.S.'s chief interest in Iraq.
I find the claim that the U.S. is intent on war with Iraq to any extent because of oil interests to be spectacularly idiotic and contemptible! If it were oil we were after, invading Saudi Arabia would not only be FAR more lucrative, it would be militarily much easier and far less dangerous and also easier to sell to the American public.
I have virtually no respect for President Bush, but it is truly insane to believe that so much of our government is both so supremely corrupt AND supremely stupid enough to even consider warring with Iraq over oil.
- Martin
© 2003 Martin. All rights reserved. Copying, quoting, or citing this copyrighted work in whole or part without the written permission of the author is prohibited. Violation of this copyright, even for personal or not-for-profit use, is a serious criminal offense and is subject to federal prosecution.
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Iraq's worst enemy Re: Re: For your consideration -- Craig C. Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Gunnar ®
02/03/2003, 06:41:54
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Gunnar
Modified by Gunnar at Wed, Feb 05, 2003, 04:03:58
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Re: Iraq's worst enemy Re: Iraq's worst enemy -- Gunnar Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Craig C. ®
02/03/2003, 10:40:03
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I can't help but think that a similar mentality will show up in Iraq. In this case, though, tthis natural desire to defend one's homeland could be aggravated by years of propoganda linking the US-led embargo to suffering of Iraqi children.
Having said all this, I certainly agree that a free and democratic Iraq could completely remake the politics of the Middle East. Getting there will be most difficult though, and we must be prepared for the worst..
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Re: Iraq's worst enemy Re: Re: Iraq's worst enemy -- Craig C. Top of thread Archive
Posted by: nofaith ®
02/03/2003, 15:01:42
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> of Iraqi childrenAre you implying that the embargo hasn't led to suffering? The Iraqis are isolated and are fed propoganda constantly--but it seems to me the embargo does correlate somewhat to the lower quality of life there. I'm sure the US is demonized in their media, but is the linking to suffering totally fabricated, or is there some truth to it?
-Dan
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Re: Iraq's worst enemy Re: Re: Iraq's worst enemy -- nofaith Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Craig C. ®
02/03/2003, 15:47:20
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Where do the Iraqi oil revenues go? How many palaces does Saddam need? How many weapons must he hoard?
My general impression is that the lower quality of life of the Iraqi people is due more to the rapaciousness and calculated cruelty of the Iraqi government than the embargo.
Unfortunately, the embargo did provide the Iraqi government with a convenient scapegoat, and, if only for that reason, it was poor policy.
Craig
Modified by Craig C. at Mon, Feb 03, 2003, 15:51:58
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Speaking of embargoes Re: Re: Iraq's worst enemy -- Craig C. Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Gunnar ®
02/04/2003, 00:15:43
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Gunnar
Modified by Gunnar at Wed, Feb 05, 2003, 04:08:20
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very well put. Re: Speaking of embargoes -- Gunnar Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Craig C. ®
02/04/2003, 09:13:50
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Re: Excellent question Re: Re: For your consideration -- grendel Top of thread Archive
Posted by: JAK ®
02/02/2003, 16:51:52
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“Devil’s advocate” is good, grendel.You raise quite an important point. I suppose only the most committed pacifist would argue such a thing. But it is a difficult argument to make given our knowledge of history. “Justified” is clearly a judgment. In a global community, we assess justification in a different way than in wars over only the past century. The weapons available and the delivery systems for those weapons is a part of the equation.
In the case of Iraq, we (and our allies) have taken enormous “military action” already by sending perhaps as many as 200,000 men and women to the borders of Iraq with a weapons system of a magnitude to boggle the mind. Whether we fire a single rocket or drop a single bomb, we have taken military action. That action (the war which is not yet) as cost billions and some human lives on our side.
Not only do “all wars involve loss of civilian and innocent life,” preparation for those wars also involves the loss life.
JAK
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Shuttle Tragedy Questions Re: The Columbia Shuttle Tragedy -- JAK Top of thread Archive
Posted by: jesse ®
02/04/2003, 12:56:30
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It this essentially an air craft disaster?
If a plane crashed the day before killing 37 (or 100) adults, leaving 37 families without parents, what would be the difference?
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Re: Shuttle Tragedy Questions Re: Shuttle Tragedy Questions -- jesse Top of thread Archive
Posted by: grendel ®
02/04/2003, 13:51:59
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Re: Shuttle Tragedy Questions Re: Shuttle Tragedy Questions -- jesse Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Martin ®
02/06/2003, 04:43:06
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Not surprised, mind you, but certainly appalled.
© 2003 Martin. All rights reserved. Copying, quoting, or citing this copyrighted work in whole or part without the written permission of the author is prohibited. Violation of this copyright, even for personal or not-for-profit use, is a serious criminal offense and is subject to federal prosecution.
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Question for you Re: Shuttle Tragedy Questions -- jesse Top of thread Archive
Posted by: TLC ®
02/06/2003, 13:37:10
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Columbia was a space program disaster. Entirely unconnected with general aviation.
TLC
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What suprises me the most... Re: The Columbia Shuttle Tragedy -- JAK Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Martin ®
02/06/2003, 04:55:31
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With Challenger, we as a nation were profoundly affected at all levels of our society for weeks and months. Columbia seems, in the opinion of myself and several friends and family members, to be far less traumatic to our national psyche. For just one example, unlike in the aftermath of Challenger, late-night comedians didn't miss a beat. It certainly doesn't seem to have wounded us nearly so deeply or for nearly as long.
Now, the reasons for this are easy to speculate upon: for one thing, Challenger and 9/11 probably have tended to inure us emotionally to tragedy.
But is that the primary factor, or have we finally begun to mature?
Any thoughts?
- Martin
© 2003 Martin. All rights reserved. Copying, quoting, or citing this copyrighted work in whole or part without the written permission of the author is prohibited. Violation of this copyright, even for personal or not-for-profit use, is a serious criminal offense and is subject to federal prosecution.
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Re: What surprises me the most... Re: What suprises me the most... -- Martin Top of thread Archive
Posted by: TLC ®
02/06/2003, 11:24:58
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I remember some jokes circulating around my office the very day of Challenger. It was accepted by many as an instant therapy in the face of intense mental anguish and seemed to work for many. Humor can often be a healer or soother of sorts, especially in the aftermath of tragedy.The late night comedians today are probably not more unfeeling, just more open, and, as such, I commend them for helping us to ease the pain and consequently to realize that life must go on, even when the worst has happened.
The Columbia disaster was only a matter of time in most peoples minds, after Challenger. We all knew it would happen again, it was only a matter of when. The first event of a series is always the worst, somehow. There will most certainly be others, as a matter of (progress?).
We most likely, are maturing in this respect, in that we,as a people, are learning to confront tragedy with more of a realistic approach, especially after the horrendous events of 9-11. But this doesn't necessarily indicate that we are a less feeling society. I hope not.
You and me and rest of the world should hope with everything that is in them, that Americans, with all of our obvious faults, never lose our well established compassion for the suffering of anyone, anywhere.
As usual with my opinions,
TLC
Modified by TLC at Thu, Feb 06, 2003, 18:05:30
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