| Somewhere in the far recesses of my mind |  | ||
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Posted by: Ramona ® 12/28/2002, 05:39:53 Author Profile Mail author |
In the Jesus story, we come upon a character (the fall guy) named Judas. Where was this character derived? I assume he is the product of another hijacking of ancient tale, but do not know which. Why would this Judas character be essential to the story? Was his culture, background a part of the reason he was chosen as bad guy? Any helps? Ramona |
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Re: Somewhere in the far recesses of my mind Re: Somewhere in the far recesses of my mind -- Ramona Top of thread Archive
Posted by: grman ®
12/28/2002, 06:52:46
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I don't think this is what you're looking for, but tradition tells me that Judas was a zealot, who fully expected that Jesus would be the warrior messiah. He may have even felt that he was doing good by thrusting Jesus into a position that would require his taking a stand and revealing himself to be what the zealots expected. To me, this does not at all put the zealots in a bad light--I think that we all agree here that their expectation was reasonable.
-Dave
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That's essentially correct, Dave! Re: Re: Somewhere in the far recesses of my mind -- grman Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Martin ®
12/28/2002, 08:47:03
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The fictionalized Gospels were constructed well after what would have been the time frame of the alleged events. One of the trickiest problems the Gospel inventors faced was how best to create a "plot bridge" between the ministry/miracle fables and the Passion fable. This was a problem because during the ministry phase of their books, their Jesus character simply was not written to do much of anything that was compellingly worthy of Roman capital punishment, which they needed for their Big Finish. Their solution? Invent a political zealot character (Judas Iscariot, aka Judas the Assassin) to "give over" Jesus to the Man on accusations of sedition.
Naturally, there's much more to the whole Judas mythology than that admittedly over-simplified, surface-level summary. For example, one of the main purposes for writing in an evil, despised zealot by these fictionalizers (who were writing in the very touchy times after the sack of Jerusalem) was that with such a message, the Powers that Be would be pleased to see an anti-Roman character like Judas be the heavy; the fall guy; the villian. It was a way of telling Rome: "Don't hurt us again! We'll be nice! We're your friends! We even made the bad guy be a Roman-hater!"
Purty darn clever, actually.
- Martin
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Re: That's essentially correct, Dave! Re: That's essentially correct, Dave! -- Martin Top of thread Archive
Posted by: grman ®
12/28/2002, 10:19:05
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I just don't get it. Why is it required that a genius like Paul strip Christianity of its "violence" and "xenophobia"? Why is it required that a "fall guy" figure be inserted by myth-makers? Why can't it just be that the Gospels are coherent and plausible?
You know the orthodoxy: As the time predicted in the book of Daniel for the coming of the Annointed One approached, an atmosphere of anticipation for His coming grew. The pre-Christian (what does that word mean?) Messianic expectation was for a political/military leader, as you have pointed out, and Jesus [allegedly] came onto the scene at a time when zealots were seeking to overthrow the Roman occupation. But he, instead, amassed a following with his healings and other miracles, and through his preaching of a non-violent, personal, spiritual message of love and the Kingdom of God. However, his relentless criticism of the Pharisees put into motion plots to eliminate him early on in his ministry. (Who were the Pharisees--that's an interesting question in itself.)
The argument that the teachings of Jesus do not mesh with his death ignores the masses, their expectations, and the way second- and third-hand news of his miraculous ministry would have spread and been interpreted. I think that many people either wondered if he was the Messiah, or outright believed that he was. Those who indirectly heard about his miracles and his following may have heard enough to convince them that Messiah had come, and they may not have known about or may have been willing to overlook his lack of political agenda for the sake of the personal greatness he exhibited. This, presumably, was the case with Judas.
So Jesus entered Jerusalem, knowing that the people expected him to reveal himself to be a political/military savior, and He allowed himself to be received as such in the full sight of Rome. But at the temple, He simply insulted the religious establishment once again with an angry demonstration and "blasphemous" proclamations. No conquest. He allowed himself to be arrested. Again, no conquest. He thus openly failed to meet the expectations of people who had publicly stuck their necks out in support of him, and who had invested emotionally in the hope that they believed he offered. So even if the number of Pharisees who had sought his demise had been small, with the priesthood having seen his blasphemy with their own eyes, with the masses justifiably against him and with Rome taking a hypocritical "hands off" approach, his fate was sealed. He set himself up for execution--there was no way he could have left Jerusalem alive. He layed down his life, and he did so without having to resort to a single act of violence, other than the throwing around of some coins and tables and some insults.
Of course, I believe that Judas was a historical figure, but I believe that in the scheme of things, his act was more symbolic than anything. I have never looked at him as being representative of anything other than the potential that lies within me as a believer to betray Christ by my actions.
-Dave
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Re: That's essentially correct, Dave! Re: Re: That's essentially correct, Dave! -- grman Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Martin ®
12/28/2002, 11:41:27
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You plead, rather poignantly: "Why can't it just be that the Gospels are coherent and plausible?"
I know what you're asking, but in truth you expect too much! Why can't it snow just on ski slopes and everywhere but roads on Christmas Eve? Why can't it rain everywhere only at 3:00 AM like it usually does in San Diego? Why didn't the Founding Fathers outlaw slavery and grant voting rights to everyone, including women? Why didn't I win the $320 million lottery the other day (besides the fact I didn't buy any tickets)?
The sad truth is that the Gospels are fundamentally incoherent and inconsistent and implausible, but great efforts have been expended to try to disguise these uncomfortable facts. To get a general handle on the scope of the problem, you need to see:
Internal inconsistencies revealed in the gospel of Matthew
Why did Matthew find it necessary to insist that Christ was born of a virgin?
Critique of John Warwick Montgomery's Arguments for the Legal Evidence for Christianity
A List of Biblical Contradictions
The Genealogy of Jesus of Nazareth
Textual Contradictions in the Bible
Kooks and Quacks of the Roman Empire: a look into the world of the gospels (1997)
Dave, the Gospels (all of them, not just the canonical ones) record obviously mythical allegories beyond just the parables and include much material which modern eyes understandably but erroneously imagine to be historical reportage. If you read with clearer eyes you would see the mythical and mystical nature of the Gospels as clearly as you now falsely imagine you see "historical reportage" there.
To properly recognize and understand the multiple and inconsistent stories in the New Testament and why they're so inconsistent, take a good long time and carefully study the contents of the following site: The Origins of Christianity
Sincerely,- Martin
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So Ricky, riddle me this Re: Re: That's essentially correct, Dave! -- Martin Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Jersey Girl! ®
12/28/2002, 12:15:59
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Vicky
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Re: So Ricky, riddle me this Re: So Ricky, riddle me this -- Jersey Girl! Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Martin ®
12/28/2002, 12:26:21
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My studies were upsetting to me because a careful and truly self-honest study of the Bible would destroy anyone's faith, and I found my loss of faith very upsetting for some time during and afterwards.
Now, of course, I see it as a Godsend ;)
- Martin
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Re: So Ricky, riddle me this Re: Re: So Ricky, riddle me this -- Martin Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Jersey Girl! ®
12/28/2002, 12:36:30
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Vicki
okay, the ;) lightens me up :)
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Re: So Ricky, riddle me this Re: Re: So Ricky, riddle me this -- Jersey Girl! Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Martin ®
12/28/2002, 12:41:52
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What matters is that the Bible isn't truthful or accurate and is obviously the work of humans who had no knowledge of or contact with God although they lied through their teeth claiming falsely that they did!
Nothing upsets me like lies, Vicki.
- Martin
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Re: So Ricky, riddle me this Re: Re: So Ricky, riddle me this -- Martin Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Jersey Girl! ®
12/28/2002, 12:45:46
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First, let me say that nothing upsets ME like communicating on this god forsaken computer! Okay, having vented, I see the Bible as a collection of accounts of peoples encounters with God. Perceived or real, I cannot say. What if I tell you that I feel I've encountered God, write an account of it and give it to you. (Actually I think I did that sans preaching!). Who is to say, Martin, if those events are or are not actual encounters with God/Spirit? Be back, switching over.
Vicki
p.s. as to your last statement. Not everything you interpret as a lie represents any sort of intentional deceit. Carelessness maybe.
Modified by Jersey Girl! at Sat, Dec 28, 2002, 12:53:29
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My last word in this subthread Re: Re: So Ricky, riddle me this -- Jersey Girl! Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Martin ®
12/28/2002, 13:03:25
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I really, really don't want to continue this beyond this point, so I won't. I fear that so much chatter will force mikwut's cluster bomb thread off the active pages before I respond fully.
So let me end my participation in this subthread by pointing out something you have apparently never learned the unsurpassable importance of: Occam's Razor, or the Principle of Parsimony.
When faced with two or more views or explanations or opinions or theories or hypotheses or what have you, the wise and intelligent and self-honest person will ALWAYS carefully choose the view that:
- Accounts for ALL the well established facts,If you apply this set of principles to claims of religious experiences, you will find that in ALL cases ever recorded in all of human history, the non-religious, non-supernatural, non-paranormal choice is ALWAYS the most parsimonious and wise choice.- Gives great weight to facts which have been emprically and scientifically confirmed with high quality objective evidence and gives little or no weight to subjective or speculative or unlikely claims,
- Requires an amount and quality of evidence commensurate with the degree that each claim departs from everyday empirical experience or else is completely rejected,
- Does not include any speculation or belief beyond what the established facts require.
To summarize: Never in all of recorded history thus far has there been an event which is most parsimoniously explained as a religious or supernatural event.
Good night.
- Martin
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My Mother Re: My last word in this subthread -- Martin Top of thread Archive
Posted by: grman ®
12/29/2002, 01:02:50
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Re: My Mother Re: My Mother -- grman Top of thread Archive
Posted by: rdl ®
12/29/2002, 06:13:48
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...so...
How does this prove the existence of a God?
rdl
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Re: My Mother Re: Re: My Mother -- rdl Top of thread Archive
Posted by: JAK ®
12/29/2002, 08:25:55
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Prayer IS an attempt to manipulate. If people said, “I hope mother is able to live; I want mother to live,” it would not have the emotional satisfaction that the mythology has.
I have a friend who prayed his 95 year old mother would die. She had known NO ONE for 3 years, she could not feed herself, she had no control over her bodily functions, she recognized nothing...yet she lived. In time, she died and looking back on the experience, my friend never once genuinely believed that his prayers changed the scientific facts of his mother’s long “good bye.”
JAK
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Re: My Mother Re: Re: My Mother -- JAK Top of thread Archive
Posted by: rdl ®
12/29/2002, 21:48:23
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ummm...yes, that was my point. I was rather hoping that grman would see it himself.
***sigh***
rdl
Modified by rdl at Sun, Dec 29, 2002, 21:49:17
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Re: grman?? Re: Re: My Mother -- rdl Top of thread Archive
Posted by: JAK ®
12/30/2002, 07:22:00
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JAK
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Re: My Mother Re: My Mother -- grman Top of thread Archive
Posted by: JAK ®
12/29/2002, 08:18:18
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Moreover, people “pray” all the time for the sustaining of a life which is ending. When President John F. Kennedy was shot, an entire nation of those who believed that prayer would affect an outcome prayed. Kennedy died from wounds inflicted on him.
COINCIDENCE grman. People want to manipulate their “God” by praying. If things work out as they have prayed, they often believe that they have done just that. They asked “God,” and “God” granted what they asked. If they get a partial “grant,” they “thank God.” When they get no grant, they dissemble into, God speaks in mysterious ways. OR God answered my prayer, just not the way I wanted etc.
They make up any answer or scenario they wish to preserve the myth which they wish to preserve.
JAK
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Your Mother? Re: Re: My Mother -- JAK Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Jersey Girl! ®
12/29/2002, 09:41:54
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JAK,
I disagree with your statement that people pray to manipulate God. I see what you're saying, but I don't think I entirely hold to that. Prayer is an act of faith. I believe that God (if he's able to interact with us) is going to do what he's going to do no matter what we want. Rather than hit God up with a wish list...I want this, can you fix that? I normally pray for strength, courage, and things like that, help to get me through whatever is in front of me and expression of gratitude. I've been told by too many people that I'm "strong". It kinda makes me angry!! What gets me from point A to point B is faith. I learned a million years ago (I'm quite old and decrepit:) not to try to make deals with God. Doesn't work! I know, and he certainly must know, that I can't come through! Is God all in my head? Yes!
Vicki
p.s. just as an aside. When I read these post titles I couldn't help but remember an old Jersey "choose up" rhyme:
"My mother and your mother were hanging out the clothes
My mother punched your mother right in the nose
What color blood did she have?
(red)
R,E, D, spells Red and out you do go!"(Do you realize the VIOLENT culture I was raised in??)
Modified by Jersey Girl! at Sun, Dec 29, 2002, 09:52:41
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Re: Praying Re: Your Mother? -- Jersey Girl! Top of thread Archive
Posted by: JAK ®
12/29/2002, 11:01:38
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It was grman who titled a post “My Mother” not you. My remarks were addressed to grman. If you wish to think otherwise, please re-read the sequence.
Of course prayer is an attempt to manipulate God. You and I have had this discussion before. In it I asked you to construct a prayer for analysis. You refused. Why? You will likely refuse now. What do you say in a prayer. Less personally, objectively speaking, what are typical prayers of Christians? What do they contain? They are filled with appeals to “God” to do something. Hence, prayers are attempts to control God for personal benefit.
I doubt that “prayer is an act of faith.” If so, faith about what? You state: “I believe that God (if he's able to interact with us) is going to do what he's going to do no matter what we want.”
Your parenthetical is interesting. It expresses doubt. Are you asking “God” to give YOU strength? It appears so. You WANT something from “God” and are ASKING for it. You ask for “courage.” Why? Do you think (believe) that if you don’t ask for it you will not have or get it? Do you think (believe) that you WILL be given “courage” if and ONLY IF you ask for it? If any of these, you are attempting to manipulate your “God” to do for you what you want done.
As for “gratitude,” what does that say? Gratitude for what? Something given to YOU but denied to me (or someone else) who cannot be grateful for that which he does NOT have that YOU do have BECAUSE “God” favored you.
“Thanking God” for that which you have recognizes that OTHERS don’t have what you have. Otherwise there would be absolutely no rational for such expression.
Consider: Thank you God for giving me gravity today. Thank you God for keeping MY house on the ground and not in the air as is my neighbor’s when the tornado destroyed HIS home....but not MINE, God, because I prayed and you saved MY house but not my neighbor’s.
Can you see the dilemma “prayer” presents? It makes “God” the ugly, partisan, selectively kind (and unkind) entity of whimsical meanness.
Prayer may well be an absence of faith. I have faith in gravity. I don’t pray about it, ask for it, say “please God” about it. The real reflection of “faith” need not be expressed but rests in knowledge secured by information, test, and confirmation.
Asking “God” for anything implies that a “asking” is required. As a general rule, Vicki, when you start your car (I assume you have a car), do you “pray” that it will start? When you see a red light, do you “pray” that your car’s brakes will work? When you get ready to exit your car, do you “pray” that the door will OPEN? I doubt you do. WHY DON’T YOU? You don’t because you have REAL faith that the door WILL open. You don’t have to “pray” about it.
Sorry if I sounded grumpy...
JAK
Modified by JAK at Sun, Dec 29, 2002, 11:05:26
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You are as they say Re: Re: Praying -- JAK Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Jersey Girl! ®
12/29/2002, 12:59:15
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Let me C/P this one...
YOU: It was grman who titled a post “My Mother” not you. My remarks were addressed to grman. If you wish to think otherwise, please re-read the sequence.
ME: Sorry, I clicked on the very last post I saw. I know you didn't make those remarks.
YOU: Of course prayer is an attempt to manipulate God. You and I have had this discussion before. In it I asked you to construct a prayer for analysis. You refused. Why? You will likely refuse now.ME: JAK, I posted one simulated prayer and one genuine prayer on this board and caught holy hell for it. I refuse now because I have no wish to see words that I would offer up to my God trashed here.
YOU: What do you say in a prayer. Less personally, objectively speaking, what are typical prayers of Christians? What do they contain? They are filled with appeals to “God” to do something. Hence, prayers are attempts to control God for personal benefit.ME: I don't know how the typical Christian prays. I know how the people in my church pray aloud but I don't pray the same way. Yes, prayers are filled with appeals and also gratitude, JAK. At least mine are. Please don't brush off "thanksgiving" in the category of prayer. People often call it "praise" nowadays. I will remark on your statement regarding "control God" at the end of this post.
YOU: I doubt that “prayer is an act of faith.” If so, faith about what? You state: “I believe that God (if he's able to interact with us) is going to do what he's going to do no matter what we want.”
ME: Yes, it is an act of faith. Faith that God exists, faith that he watches over us, that he will provide for us, the very offering up of prayer demonstrates that.
YOU: Your parenthetical is interesting. It expresses doubt. Are you asking “God” to give YOU strength? It appears so. You WANT something from “God” and are ASKING for it. You ask for “courage.” Why? Do you think (believe) that if you don’t ask for it you will not have or get it? Do you think (believe) that you WILL be given “courage” if and ONLY IF you ask for it? If any of these, you are attempting to manipulate your “God” to do for you what you want done.
ME: Again, the asking for it is a demonstration of faith. I'll address the "manipulate God" statement at the end of this post.
YOU: As for “gratitude,” what does that say? Gratitude for what? Something given to YOU but denied to me (or someone else) who cannot be grateful for that which he does NOT have that YOU do have BECAUSE “God” favored you.
ME: Gratitude for many things, JAK. You are couching this in terms of "good" and "pleasant" things that I might have and you don't have. Put the concept of "possession" aside for a moment. Gratitude for many things as I said, even for things or events that one would not normally consider desirable. I wish I could think of an example right now that's not too personal to place here or one that I could construct in an impersonal way. If something comes, I'll post it should this exchange continue.
YOU: “Thanking God” for that which you have recognizes that OTHERS don’t have what you have. Otherwise there would be absolutely no rational for such expression.
ME: Again, put the concept of "possession" aside. Think in terms of experiences, events, not all of them good or pleasant. For example, difficulties often help us to develop qualities in ourselves. Hmm...let me think. My so called "strength". Where does it come from? First, I'm not as strong as some people think. My feelings get hurt easily and deeply but I try not to show it. I've told you that on the forum before, I think it makes me look weak and I keep my guard up because I've seen too many instances where women (even me) were the subject of aggression and exploitation, so I walk a fine line between tough and soft. I do digress...my so called "strength" comes from hard times. Probably everything that people claim to "admire" in me comes from hard places. Even, and especially, my soft places come from hard places. When those days were on me, was I grateful? Nope. I suffered alot as a child in various ways. I envied other children for various things. I didn't feel completely "whole" as a child because I was essentially deprived of a great many things and exposed to things that should have cracked my mind wide open. I was an angry, perhaps more angry than most, teenager on account of those days. But, looking back, I feel a sense of gratitude for those days. I am not nearly as superficial or materialistic as the children I once envied and far more compassionate, empathetic and, I think, perceptive than many others. I even knew something was wrong on your end by reading your posts before this one. And I don't know, somehow, all those things I was exposed to, the things I was embarrassed of at the time, made me more accepting of people and even, eventually of myself. I developed a good sense of what matters in life. That people matter more than things. Wasn't hard to do...I didn't have many "things"! Because of some rugged environments, I think I developed a delight in the beauty of simple things. I better stop before I get flamed for this one. Do I thank God for this? Yes. Do I think that God had a hand in it? Yes. Do I think it was purposeful? Yes. And on the other hand, you could as well say that I was the invulnerable child (really I wasn't) who somehow had the sense to take the junk and put it to some good use.
YOU: Consider: Thank you God for giving me gravity today. Thank you God for keeping MY house on the ground and not in the air as is my neighbor’s when the tornado destroyed HIS home....but not MINE, God, because I prayed and you saved MY house but not my neighbor’s.
ME: No, JAK, I don't pray that way, but I understand what you're saying. Surely people in Tornado Alley are thankful for these things. But, tongue in cheek aside, if I WERE living in Tornado Alley (which I did for a number of years) and my trailer stayed on the ground and my neighbors flew apart in pieces. I'd thank God and go help them. I would share my clothes, my food and I would most definitely give them my bed for as long as they needed it.
YOU: Can you see the dilemma “prayer” presents? It makes “God” the ugly, partisan, selectively kind (and unkind) entity of whimsical meanness.
ME: I see how prayer presents a dilemma in your mind, but it doesn't me. While we are thanking God for "things" we have (if we do that) we should at the same time be sharing what we have. But that's me and I'm by no means perfect.
YOU: Prayer may well be an absence of faith. I have faith in gravity. I don’t pray about it, ask for it, say “please God” about it. The real reflection of “faith” need not be expressed but rests in knowledge secured by information, test, and confirmation.ME: Yes, you could look at it that way. I'll address this below with the others.
YOU: Asking “God” for anything implies that a “asking” is required. As a general rule, Vicki, when you start your car (I assume you have a car), do you “pray” that it will start? When you see a red light, do you “pray” that your car’s brakes will work? When you get ready to exit your car, do you “pray” that the door will OPEN? I doubt you do. WHY DON’T YOU? You don’t because you have REAL faith that the door WILL open. You don’t have to “pray” about it.
ME: JAK, when it snows here I might very well pray that my car will turn over! No, I don't have to pray about cars. I do pray for travel.
YOU: Sorry if I sounded grumpy... JAK
ME: Not at all, everyone has a turn at that!
Closing comments: What I wanted to say with regards to the "control" and "manipulation" of God and expressions of "faith" is this. Do you know what "proximity seeking" is? Do you know how a child of 18 months will venture around and run back to mother's side? Or how an older child will, when afraid, run to their parent? How they need to touch base or hold on? Even hide? I look at prayer as my seeking proximity with God. Seeking proximity in the same way a child seeks proximity with their parent. In the same way that a child talks quietly with their parent and tells them how they feel, what they think, shares their love, even "hides" by their parent's side, or asks their parent for food,or for help, or a baby cries for it's mother, that's how I see my relationship to God. Does that help you to know me better?
p.s. It occurs to me that my remarks about myself may seem quite arrogant. I assure you that I don't mean them in that light. It hasn't been so very long since I've allowed myself to acknowledge certain qualities in myself. I hope I didn't come off too full of myself.
Modified by Jersey Girl! at Sun, Dec 29, 2002, 13:06:06
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not arrogant...honest. Re: You are as they say -- Jersey Girl! Top of thread Archive
Posted by: rdl ®
12/29/2002, 21:44:28
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As an "always atheist" I find it difficult to understand what goes through the mind of a believer and your "proximity seeking" analogy was lovely.Thank you
rdl
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Proximity seeking (long) Re: not arrogant...honest. -- rdl Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Jersey Girl! ®
12/30/2002, 12:06:09
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It's difficult for me to articulate a concept without a visual of some sort. I think you can easily relate to the concept of proximity seeking since you've had the opportunity to re-experience that dynamic and it's purpose as a parent. The "clip" of the toddler and his/her need to touch base as a way of reinforcement and gaining courage to "step out" again is as close as I can come to conveying to a non-believer why I pray. I cannot speak for other believers and I'm sure that you'd get a variety of explanations if there were a good sampling of believers here, but I'm afraid you're stuck with me.
I'm sure you've found yourself in situations where you were facing something difficult. Everyone has. Some people retreat and seek solace, some seek the company of friends, some take a drink, some plunge in head first and some take a "deep breath" before they tackle what's in front of them. I think I have another way to explain what that means to me. Martin once described me as having an "iron core of groundedness" here. This because he knew about a series of situations that were coming on me one after another with no let up. During that time I found myself in various states of anger, defeat, determinedness, despair, confidence, it was the roller coaster ride that I never saw coming. I never see it coming. The one last thing that came my way was more than I could take. I was already weakend by all the other things that had taken place and I knew it. I hesitate to tell you how many people on the ground characterized me as "strong" during that time. Let me tell you something, I put up a good front! They didn't see me crying in bed every night, in the car or in the office with my head down on the desk after everyone had gone. They didn't see me taking the "deep breath" either. I was alternately asking God for clarity of thought, asking "how am I supposed to get through THIS, huh?", or asking (begging) for help to hang on even moment by moment and I assure you that I'm not exaggerating. I had all the hallmarks of the onset of depression (that moment by moment business was too familiar) and I was afraid that I wouldn't have the wherewithal to stay afloat. I knew I didn't. And when I was on my knees, someone threw me an anchor.
People can say that prayer is an attempt to manipulate God. I understand why they say that. I say that prayer can be a kind of reinforcement, the kind that gives you courage to keep moving because you know the end result will require it. And as for the comments here regarding coincidence. Of course my spiritual base doesn't allow me to see it that way, not entirely at least. I can honestly see it both ways. People are free to call me wrong, or naieve or delusional or whatever they wish. I believe the anchor I needed came from a human and I believe that the human was put in my path intentionally. In no way to do I mean to diminish their role, it is an expression of how much I needed help, how much I WAS helped, and how much I appreciate it. It came from them but I believe they came to me from God. Maybe it was a coincidence, maybe it was what people call "fate", whatever it was it was exactly what I needed, exactly when I needed it and exactly how I needed it.
Here's another visual for you. Do you know those scenes in movies where someone has fallen over a cliff and someone throws them a rope? Sometimes the person holding the rope isn't strong enough to pull them up and starts to lose their footing. Their feet start sliding while pieces of ground start to fall away under them. If you put an "anchor man" behind the person holding the rope, they can combine the strength they have between the two of them and pull the person up out of the ravine. In my eyes, that's what happened. I was the one holding the rope.
I believe that my belief in God was what provided the "deep breaths" when I needed reinforcement to move on what I had to move on and face what I had to face. And that God saw to it that I had a damn good "anchor man" behind me! That is the profound SIGNIFICANCE that I attach to that and the deep gratitude I still have for it every day when I look at that person who got pulled up.
So what if God is in my head? All people need reinforcement, fortification, and they do what works for them. Prayer and faith work for me. Those are by no means the ONLY means that work for me! Sometimes I sink into periods of self pity--"God why do these things always seem to come on me, haven't I had enough? You know, I could use a little BREAK here!" Without faith I'd probably still sink into those periods anyway. I think it's a combination of what I know I can do, what I believe God can do, knowing when to ask for help, accepting it even though I think it makes me look weak in people's eyes because everyone (well maybe not everyone!) EXPECTS me to be strong (WHY?) and I don't know, rdl, somehow I believe that God can do what's impossible for me to do alone and that belief somehow makes me try to reach a little further. It makes me stretch. Even when stretching means I put the pride aside and ask for help. If you knew me well, you'd know how MUCH of a stretch that is for me! Pride, thy name is Vicki!
Vicki
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Re: Proximity seeking (long) Re: Proximity seeking (long) -- Jersey Girl! Top of thread Archive
Posted by: rdl ®
12/30/2002, 19:28:17
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I know that probably seems terse but I can't think of anything else to say. I certainly can't argue or disagree with your words. They are yours and have as much validity as mine or anyone's. In some ways I envy you your belief.
with appreciation,
rdl
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"God" and the Christmas toys Re: You are as they say -- Jersey Girl! Top of thread Archive
Posted by: JAK ®
12/30/2002, 07:09:13
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What an extended response. Thanks...I didn’t expect it. I will try to comment in here without making this too much longer...no promise.
Vicki:
You are as they say in the real world--"bummed out", no? I can smell bummed out several thousand miles away and saw it in your OP near the top of the front page. I hope it's not me (since the universe truly does revolve around me)if so, please ignore everything that follows and you'll be okay!Let me C/P this one...
YOU: It was grman who titled a post “My Mother” not you. My remarks were addressed to grman. If you wish to think otherwise, please re-read the sequence.
ME: Sorry, I clicked on the very last post I saw. I know you didn't make those remarks.
YOU: Of course prayer is an attempt to manipulate God. You and I have had this discussion before. In it I asked you to construct a prayer for analysis. You refused. Why? You will likely refuse now.
ME: JAK, I posted one simulated prayer and one genuine prayer on this board and caught holy hell for it. I refuse now because I have no wish to see words that I would offer up to my God trashed here.
JAK:
If you did, I don’t recall it. Following my insistence that you give example of prayer (previously) you did not respond. Rather than “no wish to see...,” I think you are unwilling to see analysis of a real prayer. It is not trashing to give analysis and evaluation of comment. It may seem like trashing, but it is not. I don’t know just what “holy hell” is or just how one catches it. But your refusal to give example is just as it was some time ago when I asked you to give example.YOU: What do you say in a prayer. Less personally, objectively speaking, what are typical prayers of Christians? What do they contain? They are filled with appeals to “God” to do something. Hence, prayers are attempts to control God for personal benefit.
ME: I don't know how the typical Christian prays.
JAK:
I think you are too modest. The sum of all your posts suggests otherwise, unless you are hanging up your position on “typical.”Vicki:
I know how the people in my church pray aloud but I don't pray the same way.JAK:
Much clarification needed here, Vicki. YOU are one of the “people” in your church. So how do you distinguish yourself from them? If you are so different in the WAY you pray, why are you in that church at all? More questions...I am trying to be brief...but you leave a plethora of issues in this kind of statement.Vicki:
Yes, prayers are filled with appeals and also gratitude, JAK. At least mine are. Please don't brush off "thanksgiving" in the category of prayer. People often call it "praise" nowadays. I will remark on your statement regarding "control God" at the end of this post.JAK:
No “brush off.” I am focused on what people say in prayers and what is implied by what they do not say as well.Vicki:
YOU: I doubt that “prayer is an act of faith.” If so, faith about what? You state: “I believe that God (if he's able to interact with us) is going to do what he's going to do no matter what we want.”ME: Yes, it is an act of faith. Faith that God exists, faith that he watches over us, that he will provide for us, the very offering up of prayer demonstrates that.
JAK:
Now Vicki, we have been in this “field” before. Remember the question here. What is the evidence for “God” mythology? Which “God” mythology? Why the selection of one “God” mythology over another? etc. It is based on your cultural social contact with particular mythology, your time on the planet, your capacity for intellectual probe, etc.Vicki:
YOU: Your parenthetical is interesting. It expresses doubt. Are you asking “God” to give YOU strength? It appears so. You WANT something from “God” and are ASKING for it. You ask for “courage.” Why? Do you think (believe) that if you don’t ask for it you will not have or get it? Do you think (believe) that you WILL be given “courage” if and ONLY IF you ask for it? If any of these, you are attempting to manipulate your “God” to do for you what you want done.ME: Again, the asking for it is a demonstration of faith. I'll address the "manipulate God" statement at the end of this post.
YOU: As for “gratitude,” what does that say? Gratitude for what? Something given to YOU but denied to me (or someone else) who cannot be grateful for that which he does NOT have that YOU do have BECAUSE “God” favored you.
ME: Gratitude for many things, JAK. You are couching this in terms of "good" and "pleasant" things that I might have and you don't have. Put the concept of "possession" aside for a moment. Gratitude for many things as I said, even for things or events that one would not normally consider desirable. I wish I could think of an example right now that's not too personal to place here or one that I could construct in an impersonal way. If something comes, I'll post it should this exchange continue.
JAK:
Please do. You can use an hypothetical. I have no objection.Vicki:
YOU: “Thanking God” for that which you have recognizes that OTHERS don’t have what you have. Otherwise there would be absolutely no rational for such expression.JAK:
Next paragraph runs over a multiplicity of issues with organizational problems. I will break in where it seems appropriate.Vicki:
ME: Again, put the concept of "possession" aside.JAK:
Cannot do that. What are people asking FOR? That is a critical issue not to be dismissed. That is at the heart of the issue regarding prayer.Vicki:
Think in terms of experiences, events, not all of them good or pleasant. For example, difficulties often help us to develop qualities in ourselves. Hmm...let me think. My so called "strength". Where does it come from? First, I'm not as strong as some people think. My feelings get hurt easily and deeply but I try not to show it. I've told you that on the forum before, I think it makes me look weak and I keep my guard up because I've seen too many instances where women (even me) were the subject of aggression and exploitation, so I walk a fine line between tough and soft. I do digress...my so called "strength" comes from hard times.JAK:
I accept your comment. It is not relevant to the issue of “prayer.” “Hard times” frequently cause people to turn to mythologies. Referring to a previous comment about televangelists. They (religion) offers simple solutions to complex problems. They appeal to weakness or perceived weakness. They also appeal to emotion. Religious mythology is nothing without emotion. And prayer is nothing without emotion. That IS its base of appeal.Vicki:
Probably everything that people claim to "admire" in me comes from hard places. Even, and especially, my soft places come from hard places. When those days were on me, was I grateful? Nope. I suffered alot as a child in various ways. I envied other children for various things. I didn't feel completely "whole" as a child because I was essentially deprived of a great many things and exposed to things that should have cracked my mind wide open.JAK:
Hence, you were ripe for an emotional “fix.” I do not say that disrespectfully, though it might sound that way. People in the circumstances to which you allude ARE in an emotional state which makes them easy targets for the liniment of comforting words -- words of illusion, mythology. AND, such words may indeed give comfort. It does not give such words any genuine validity.Vicki:
I was an angry, perhaps more angry than most, teenager on account of those days. But, looking back, I feel a sense of gratitude for those days.JAK:
That is a most typical response to revisiting times of adversity, Vicki. Psychiatry explains and deals with such emotions.Vicki:
I am not nearly as superficial or materialistic as the children I once envied and far more compassionate, empathetic and, I think, perceptive than many others. I even knew something was wrong on your end by reading your posts before this one.JAK:
Can you explain what you refer to here. I have no idea. “...something was wrong on your end...” That has no meaning. Sorry.Vicki:
And I don't know, somehow, all those things I was exposed to, the things I was embarrassed of at the time, made me more accepting of people and even, eventually of myself.JAK:
That is probably a good thing. It is unrelated, however, to the issue of “prayer” and what people pray. The issue: the intent of prayer.Vicki:
I developed a good sense of what matters in life. That people matter more than things.JAK:
I agree with that comment. It is unrelated to: the intent of prayer.Vicki:
Wasn't hard to do...I didn't have many "things"! Because of some rugged environments, I think I developed a delight in the beauty of simple things. I better stop before I get flamed for this one.JAK:
I have no idea what postings to which you are referring, Vicki. I am not flaming you. I am addressing the issue of the intent of prayer.Vicki:
Do I thank God for this? Yes.JAK:
This implies that “God” DID something FOR YOU. It implies selectivity on the part of your “God.” That is a basis to conclude that you describe an ugly God. Why? Because it exemplifies the notion that this “God” DOES NOT DO for all others what has been done for you. I quite understand being grateful for good things which come. I am thankful also. But in that I don’t find any support for the notion that any “God” has selected me IN and others OUT. What of people who were born a hundred years ago, a thousand years ago, 5000 years ago? They had none of the fixtures of life WE have which give us current medical access, protection from elements of weather, etc. To suppose “God” favored YOU and not them by your placement in the evolutionary string on this 4 1/2 billion year old planet is an irrational conclusion. Knowing the facts of the evolution of the planet let alone the universe makes notions of the “boxed God” (Christianity) or any other religion’s “boxes” irrelevant, pointless notions. Knowing what we know should preclude adherence to even the last “God” mythologies.Vicki
Do I think that God had a hand in it? Yes. Do I think it was purposeful? Yes.JAK:
Well, you can think that. But there is not one ounce of evidence of support for it as indicated in my blue comment just above. You are a product of your time and place on this planet (your socio-economic-cultural place). We are all that, to be sure. But you also demonstrate “faith” is a substitute for information and not an affirmation of anything. (I will illustrate again later.)Vicki:
And on the other hand, you could as well say that I was the invulnerable child (really I wasn't) who somehow had the sense to take the junk and put it to some good use.JAK:
I have no doubt that you did and do.
Vicki:
YOU: Consider: Thank you God for giving me gravity today. Thank you God for keeping MY house on the ground and not in the air as is my neighbor’s when the tornado destroyed HIS home....but not MINE, God, because I prayed and you saved MY house but not my neighbor’s.ME: No, JAK, I don't pray that way, but I understand what you're saying. Surely people in Tornado Alley are thankful for these things. But, tongue in cheek aside, if I WERE living in Tornado Alley (which I did for a number of years) and my trailer stayed on the ground and my neighbors flew apart in pieces. I'd thank God and go help them.
JAK:
Now WHAT are you thanking God for? You are thanking God that God favored you. Then you say you will go help your neighbors whom your God did NOT favor. THINK about what you are saying here. You depict an mean, partisan, whimsical, selective entity which you call “God.” That is a conclusion based on no evidence which can be or has been examined in some objective way.Vicki:
I would share my clothes, my food and I would most definitely give them my bed for as long as they needed it.JAK:
That’s good. It is all irrelevant to the issue of prayer.Vicki:
YOU: Can you see the dilemma “prayer” presents? It makes “God” the ugly, partisan, selectively kind (and unkind) entity of whimsical meanness.ME: I see how prayer presents a dilemma in your mind, but it doesn't me. While we are thanking God for "things" we have (if we do that) we should at the same time be sharing what we have. But that's me and I'm by no means perfect.
JAK:
The dilemma is with prayer and what people do when they pray. “...thanking God for ‘things’ we have...” presumes that GOD has given those “things” to YOU. If God were fair or just, those others with whom “we” should share would need nothing from us. It is only because “God” (your God) LEFT THOSE OTHERS OUT OF THE BENEFIT LOOP that you think YOU should “share.” Hence, YOUR God is not as good, not as kind, not as generous, not as concerned about those others as YOU should be. You state: “We should at the same time be sharing what we have.” I have no objection to sharing. It is the ugly “God” reflected in your mythology which is implausible. If your “God” to which you give full responsibility (Christian mythology), were kind, fair, just, these OTHERS would have been in the benefit loop already. They were not by your illustration of your perception.Vicki:
YOU: Prayer may well be an absence of faith. I have faith in gravity. I don’t pray about it, ask for it, say “please God” about it. The real reflection of “faith” need not be expressed but rests in knowledge secured by information, test, and confirmation.ME: Yes, you could look at it that way. I'll address this below with the others.
YOU: Asking “God” for anything implies that a “asking” is required. As a general rule, Vicki, when you start your car (I assume you have a car), do you “pray” that it will start? When you see a red light, do you “pray” that your car’s brakes will work? When you get ready to exit your car, do you “pray” that the door will OPEN? I doubt you do. WHY DON’T YOU? You don’t because you have REAL faith that the door WILL open. You don’t have to “pray” about it.
ME: JAK, when it snows here I might very well pray that my car will turn over! No, I don't have to pray about cars. I do pray for travel.
JAK:
EXACTLY. You pray for that which you LACK faith in. When “might” you pray that your “car will turn over”? You pray that when you lack faith. (Cars sometimes don’t start science. You pray that your “God” will override science) What do you pray “for travel”? Whatever it is, it is an appeal for favored treatment. It is an attempt to influence “God” to act in YOUR behalf. You don’t pray that gravity will work. You have FAITH that gravity will work. You aren’t sure about “travel,” so you want intervention by God in your behalf. You want a favor. Do you pray for your neighbor’s “travel”? If so, you must believe that WITHOUT YOUR PRAYER TO YOUR GOD your neighbor might be in danger. You attempt to influence your God to protect your neighbor. That portrays YOUR God as most partisan...awaiting YOUR prayer to influence “God” to do the right thing by your neighbor. It’s not a very worship worthy entity. YOU are better than “God” because YOU will help your neighbor. Just how is prayer relevant?Vicki:
YOU: Sorry if I sounded grumpy... JAKME: Not at all, everyone has a turn at that!
Closing comments: What I wanted to say with regards to the "control" and "manipulation" of God and expressions of "faith" is this. Do you know what "proximity seeking" is?
JAK:
It is a combination of ambiguous terms which mean anything you want to say they mean.Vicki:
Do you know how a child of 18 months will venture around and run back to mother's side? Or how an older child will, when afraid, run to their parent? How they need to touch base or hold on? Even hide? I look at prayer as my seeking proximity with God.JAK:
It seems quite a weak analogy, Vicki. Human psychology, human response to stimuli is a product of thousands of years of evolution. We can explain it in large measure today. A child feels insecure. A parent is a TANGIBLE, PHYSICAL, psychological thing.Vicki:
Seeking proximity in the same way a child seeks proximity with their parent. In the same way that a child talks quietly with their parent and tells them how they feel, what they think, shares their love, even "hides" by their parent's side, or asks their parent for food,or for help, or a baby cries for it's mother, that's how I see my relationship to God. Does that help you to know me better?JAK:
The parent is PRESENT. Communication has evolved to the extent that parents and children can “talk.” “God” is no parallel. Your “God” myth is a product of thousands of years of human history, human culture, human perceptions. Those are based on a variety of things....speculation validated by test and study, speculation absent any validation at all, AND a combination of both. The parent talks and the child talks also. The language they use is taught. You do not have a “relationship to God” which is anything like a parent and child. You may imagine that you do, but that is pure speculation on your part. And individuals who subscribe to particular “God mythologies” do not agree with one another on those mythologies. ...No tests, no peer reviews, no outside observers.
I recommend: Mythology’s Last Gods by William R. Harwood.Vicki:
p.s. It occurs to me that my remarks about myself may seem quite arrogant. I assure you that I don't mean them in that light. It hasn't been so very long since I've allowed myself to acknowledge certain qualities in myself. I hope I didn't come off too full of myself.JAK:
I do not think your remarks are “arrogant” in this piece, Vicki. At the same time, I do not think you can address my analysis of your “God” notions. You DO paint a God mythology of a God which must be pandered to and petitioned, which, at the same time, grants and withholds good from humans as a child might give and take back a Christmas toy.
JAK
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Response interrupted Re: "God" and the Christmas toys -- JAK Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Jersey Girl! ®
01/01/2003, 13:19:56
Author Profile Mail author
I just finished my reply to you below and then looked at this fourteener! I don't have it in me at the moment to reply to it all. Let me begin with just this and try to complete this tomorrow.
Okay, let me try to climb this fourteener you've given me! I'll post my comments in BOLD, please don't think I'm YELLING at you!
ME: JAK, I posted one simulated prayer and one genuine prayer on this board and caught holy hell for it. I refuse now because I have no wish to see words that I would offer up to my God trashed here.JAK:
If you did, I don’t recall it. Following my insistence that you give example of prayer (previously) you did not respond. Rather than “no wish to see...,” I think you are unwilling to see analysis of a real prayer. It is not trashing to give analysis and evaluation of comment. It may seem like trashing, but it is not. I don’t know just what “holy hell” is or just how one catches it. But your refusal to give example is just as it was some time ago when I asked you to give example.
VICKI: I WAS IN A DISCUSSION WITH YOU AND MARTIN, I BELIEVE IT MIGHT HAVE BEEN THE 'NO EVIDENCE FOR LOVE' EXCHANGES WHERE I POSTED A SIMULATED PRAYER ABOUT A WOMAN WHOSE FRIEND WAS DYING OF CANCER. I POSTED A REAL PRAYER ON SEPT 11 OR 12 WHEN SOMEONE SAID SOMETHING TO THE EFFECT THAT 'IF YOU PRAY I'LL BOW MY HEAD IN SILENCE'. THAT REAL PRAYER WAS VISCIOUSLY ATTACKED ON FORUM 2 AND THEN, UNBEKNOWNST TO ME, DRAGGED OVER TO FORUM 1. I AM NO LONGER TO DISPLAY WHAT PRIVATE WORDS I WOULD SPEAK TO MY GOD ANY MORE THAN I WOULD BE AGREEABLE TO HAVING MY PRIVATE EMAIL WORDS OR EVEN ELUSIONS TO THEM PLACED ON THIS BOARD.YOU: What do you say in a prayer. Less personally, objectively speaking, what are typical prayers of Christians? What do they contain? They are filled with appeals to “God” to do something. Hence, prayers are attempts to control God for personal benefit.
ME: I don't know how the typical Christian prays.
JAK:
I think you are too modest. The sum of all your posts suggests otherwise, unless you are hanging up your position on “typical.”VICKI: WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY THE TYPICAL PRAYERS OF CHRISTIANS? ARE YOU REFERRING TO INTERCESSION, PRAISE, THANKSGIVING, REQUESTS FOR PROVISION? I THINK THAT'S WHAT YOU MEAN.
Vicki:
I know how the people in my church pray aloud but I don't pray the same way.JAK:
Much clarification needed here, Vicki. YOU are one of the “people” in your church. So how do you distinguish yourself from them? If you are so different in the WAY you pray, why are you in that church at all? More questions...I am trying to be brief...but you leave a plethora of issues in this kind of statement.VICKI: YES, I AM ONE OF THE PEOPLE IN MY CHURCH. I ONLY KNOW HOW I HEAR PEOPLE PRAY ALOUD IN CHURCH. I DON'T HEAR THEIR PRIVATE PRAYERS BUT MY PRIVATE PRAYER IS DIFFERENT. I DISTINGUISH MYSELF FROM THEM IN THE LANGUAGE THAT I USE AND TO THE EXTENT THAT I *NAG* GOD. THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO WE REFER TO AS "PRAYER WARRIORS", I ACTUALLY HATE THAT TERM BECAUSE THE MORE ACCURATE DESCRIPTION WOULD BE "UNRELENTING GOD NAGGER'S"! THESE ARE PEOPLE WHO NATURALLY ARE MOVED TO PRAY FOR EXTENDED PERIODS, EVEN TO THE POINT OF PRAYING ABOUT THE SAME THING FOR DAYS, WEEKS, MONTHS, EVEN YEARS. I AM ONE OF THOSE. WHY AM I IN THAT CHURCH AT ALL? ACTUALLY, AT THE PRESENT TIME I'M NOT REALLY IN IT EXCEPT FOR ONE MINISTRY I HELP WITH. I'M DEALING WITH SOMETHING ELSE ON THE SIDE, SO TO SPEAK, THAT HAS MADE ME NEED TO RETREAT FOR RIGHT NOW, A KIND OF DISAPPOINTMENT I NEED TO WORK THROUGH.
Vicki:
Yes, prayers are filled with appeals and also gratitude, JAK. At least mine are. Please don't brush off "thanksgiving" in the category of prayer. People often call it "praise" nowadays. I will remark on your statement regarding "control God" at the end of this post.JAK:
No “brush off.” I am focused on what people say in prayers and what is implied by what they do not say as well.
VICKI: WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY " WHAT IS IMPLIED BY WHAT THEY DO NOT SAY"? WHAT SORTS OF THINGS DO YOU THINK PEOPLE LEAVE OUT FROM THEIR PRAYER?Vicki:
YOU: I doubt that “prayer is an act of faith.” If so, faith about what? You state: “I believe that God (if he's able to interact with us) is going to do what he's going to do no matter what we want.”ME: Yes, it is an act of faith. Faith that God exists, faith that he watches over us, that he will provide for us, the very offering up of prayer demonstrates that.
JAK:
Now Vicki, we have been in this “field” before. Remember the question here. What is the evidence for “God” mythology? Which “God” mythology? Why the selection of one “God” mythology over another? etc. It is based on your cultural social contact with particular mythology, your time on the planet, your capacity for intellectual probe, etc.VICKI: THERE IS NO CONCRETE EVIDENCE FOR ANY "GOD MYTHOLOGY". CAN WE DISCUSS SELECTION OF VARIOUS GOD MYTHOLOGIES IN ANOTHER POST OR ANOTHER THREAD, PERHAPS? YES, IT IS IN GREAT PART, BASED ON A PERSON'S CULTURAL SOCIAL CONTACT, WHAT POINT IN TIME WE INHABIT THE WORLD, AND CAPACITY FOR INTELLECTUAL PROBE. IT IS ALSO BASED ON A PERSONS WILLINGNESS OR NEED TO BELIEVE IN A FORCE GREATER THAN THEMSELVES.
****NOTE!! JAK, THIS REPLY IS OVERWHELMING ME AT THE MOMENT. CAN YOU PLEASE REFRAIN FROM REPLYING TO IT FURTHER UNTIL I FINISH HERE? I'LL COME BACK TO IT LATER TONIGHT IF POSSIBLE.Vicki:
YOU: Your parenthetical is interesting. It expresses doubt. Are you asking “God” to give YOU strength? It appears so. You WANT something from “God” and are ASKING for it. You ask for “courage.” Why? Do you think (believe) that if you don’t ask for it you will not have or get it? Do you think (believe) that you WILL be given “courage” if and ONLY IF you ask for it? If any of these, you are attempting to manipulate your “God” to do for you what you want done.ME: Again, the asking for it is a demonstration of faith. I'll address the "manipulate God" statement at the end of this post.
YOU: As for “gratitude,” what does that say? Gratitude for what? Something given to YOU but denied to me (or someone else) who cannot be grateful for that which he does NOT have that YOU do have BECAUSE “God” favored you.
ME: Gratitude for many things, JAK. You are couching this in terms of "good" and "pleasant" things that I might have and you don't have. Put the concept of "possession" aside for a moment. Gratitude for many things as I said, even for things or events that one would not normally consider desirable. I wish I could think of an example right now that's not too personal to place here or one that I could construct in an impersonal way. If something comes, I'll post it should this exchange continue.
JAK:
Please do. You can use an hypothetical. I have no objection.Vicki:
YOU: “Thanking God” for that which you have recognizes that OTHERS don’t have what you have. Otherwise there would be absolutely no rational for such expression.JAK:
Next paragraph runs over a multiplicity of issues with organizational problems. I will break in where it seems appropriate.Vicki:
ME: Again, put the concept of "possession" aside.JAK:
Cannot do that. What are people asking FOR? That is a critical issue not to be dismissed. That is at the heart of the issue regarding prayer.Vicki:
Think in terms of experiences, events, not all of them good or pleasant. For example, difficulties often help us to develop qualities in ourselves. Hmm...let me think. My so called "strength". Where does it come from? First, I'm not as strong as some people think. My feelings get hurt easily and deeply but I try not to show it. I've told you that on the forum before, I think it makes me look weak and I keep my guard up because I've seen too many instances where women (even me) were the subject of aggression and exploitation, so I walk a fine line between tough and soft. I do digress...my so called "strength" comes from hard times.JAK:
I accept your comment. It is not relevant to the issue of “prayer.” “Hard times” frequently cause people to turn to mythologies. Referring to a previous comment about televangelists. They (religion) offers simple solutions to complex problems. They appeal to weakness or perceived weakness. They also appeal to emotion. Religious mythology is nothing without emotion. And prayer is nothing without emotion. That IS its base of appeal.Vicki:
Probably everything that people claim to "admire" in me comes from hard places. Even, and especially, my soft places come from hard places. When those days were on me, was I grateful? Nope. I suffered alot as a child in various ways. I envied other children for various things. I didn't feel completely "whole" as a child because I was essentially deprived of a great many things and exposed to things that should have cracked my mind wide open.JAK:
Hence, you were ripe for an emotional “fix.” I do not say that disrespectfully, though it might sound that way. People in the circumstances to which you allude ARE in an emotional state which makes them easy targets for the liniment of comforting words -- words of illusion, mythology. AND, such words may indeed give comfort. It does not give such words any genuine validity.Vicki:
I was an angry, perhaps more angry than most, teenager on account of those days. But, looking back, I feel a sense of gratitude for those days.JAK:
That is a most typical response to revisiting times of adversity, Vicki. Psychiatry explains and deals with such emotions.Vicki:
I am not nearly as superficial or materialistic as the children I once envied and far more compassionate, empathetic and, I think, perceptive than many others. I even knew something was wrong on your end by reading your posts before this one.JAK:
Can you explain what you refer to here. I have no idea. “...something was wrong on your end...” That has no meaning. Sorry.Vicki:
And I don't know, somehow, all those things I was exposed to, the things I was embarrassed of at the time, made me more accepting of people and even, eventually of myself.JAK:
That is probably a good thing. It is unrelated, however, to the issue of “prayer” and what people pray. The issue: the intent of prayer.Vicki:
I developed a good sense of what matters in life. That people matter more than things.JAK:
I agree with that comment. It is unrelated to: the intent of prayer.Vicki:
Wasn't hard to do...I didn't have many "things"! Because of some rugged environments, I think I developed a delight in the beauty of simple things. I better stop before I get flamed for this one.JAK:
I have no idea what postings to which you are referring, Vicki. I am not flaming you. I am addressing the issue of the intent of prayer.Vicki:
Do I thank God for this? Yes.JAK:
This implies that “God” DID something FOR YOU. It implies selectivity on the part of your “God.” That is a basis to conclude that you describe an ugly God. Why? Because it exemplifies the notion that this “God” DOES NOT DO for all others what has been done for you. I quite understand being grateful for good things which come. I am thankful also. But in that I don’t find any support for the notion that any “God” has selected me IN and others OUT. What of people who were born a hundred years ago, a thousand years ago, 5000 years ago? They had none of the fixtures of life WE have which give us current medical access, protection from elements of weather, etc. To suppose “God” favored YOU and not them by your placement in the evolutionary string on this 4 1/2 billion year old planet is an irrational conclusion. Knowing the facts of the evolution of the planet let alone the universe makes notions of the “boxed God” (Christianity) or any other religion’s “boxes” irrelevant, pointless notions. Knowing what we know should preclude adherence to even the last “God” mythologies.Vicki
Do I think that God had a hand in it? Yes. Do I think it was purposeful? Yes.JAK:
Well, you can think that. But there is not one ounce of evidence of support for it as indicated in my blue comment just above. You are a product of your time and place on this planet (your socio-economic-cultural place). We are all that, to be sure. But you also demonstrate “faith” is a substitute for information and not an affirmation of anything. (I will illustrate again later.)Vicki:
And on the other hand, you could as well say that I was the invulnerable child (really I wasn't) who somehow had the sense to take the junk and put it to some good use.JAK:
I have no doubt that you did and do.Vicki:
YOU: Consider: Thank you God for giving me gravity today. Thank you God for keeping MY house on the ground and not in the air as is my neighbor’s when the tornado destroyed HIS home....but not MINE, God, because I prayed and you saved MY house but not my neighbor’s.ME: No, JAK, I don't pray that way, but I understand what you're saying. Surely people in Tornado Alley are thankful for these things. But, tongue in cheek aside, if I WERE living in Tornado Alley (which I did for a number of years) and my trailer stayed on the ground and my neighbors flew apart in pieces. I'd thank God and go help them.
JAK:
Now WHAT are you thanking God for? You are thanking God that God favored you. Then you say you will go help your neighbors whom your God did NOT favor. THINK about what you are saying here. You depict an mean, partisan, whimsical, selective entity which you call “God.” That is a conclusion based on no evidence which can be or has been examined in some objective way.Vicki:
I would share my clothes, my food and I would most definitely give them my bed for as long as they needed it.JAK:
That’s good. It is all irrelevant to the issue of prayer.Vicki:
YOU: Can you see the dilemma “prayer” presents? It makes “God” the ugly, partisan, selectively kind (and unkind) entity of whimsical meanness.ME: I see how prayer presents a dilemma in your mind, but it doesn't me. While we are thanking God for "things" we have (if we do that) we should at the same time be sharing what we have. But that's me and I'm by no means perfect.
JAK:
The dilemma is with prayer and what people do when they pray. “...thanking God for ‘things’ we have...” presumes that GOD has given those “things” to YOU. If God were fair or just, those others with whom “we” should share would need nothing from us. It is only because “God” (your God) LEFT THOSE OTHERS OUT OF THE BENEFIT LOOP that you think YOU should “share.” Hence, YOUR God is not as good, not as kind, not as generous, not as concerned about those others as YOU should be. You state: “We should at the same time be sharing what we have.” I have no objection to sharing. It is the ugly “God” reflected in your mythology which is implausible. If your “God” to which you give full responsibility (Christian mythology), were kind, fair, just, these OTHERS would have been in the benefit loop already. They were not by your illustration of your perception.Vicki:
YOU: Prayer may well be an absence of faith. I have faith in gravity. I don’t pray about it, ask for it, say “please God” about it. The real reflection of “faith” need not be expressed but rests in knowledge secured by information, test, and confirmation.ME: Yes, you could look at it that way. I'll address this below with the others.
YOU: Asking “God” for anything implies that a “asking” is required. As a general rule, Vicki, when you start your car (I assume you have a car), do you “pray” that it will start? When you see a red light, do you “pray” that your car’s brakes will work? When you get ready to exit your car, do you “pray” that the door will OPEN? I doubt you do. WHY DON’T YOU? You don’t because you have REAL faith that the door WILL open. You don’t have to “pray” about it.
ME: JAK, when it snows here I might very well pray that my car will turn over! No, I don't have to pray about cars. I do pray for travel.
JAK:
EXACTLY. You pray for that which you LACK faith in. When “might” you pray that your “car will turn over”? You pray that when you lack faith. (Cars sometimes don’t start science. You pray that your “God” will override science) What do you pray “for travel”? Whatever it is, it is an appeal for favored treatment. It is an attempt to influence “God” to act in YOUR behalf. You don’t pray that gravity will work. You have FAITH that gravity will work. You aren’t sure about “travel,” so you want intervention by God in your behalf. You want a favor. Do you pray for your neighbor’s “travel”? If so, you must believe that WITHOUT YOUR PRAYER TO YOUR GOD your neighbor might be in danger. You attempt to influence your God to protect your neighbor. That portrays YOUR God as most partisan...awaiting YOUR prayer to influence “God” to do the right thing by your neighbor. It’s not a very worship worthy entity. YOU are better than “God” because YOU will help your neighbor. Just how is prayer relevant?Vicki:
YOU: Sorry if I sounded grumpy... JAKME: Not at all, everyone has a turn at that!
Closing comments: What I wanted to say with regards to the "control" and "manipulation" of God and expressions of "faith" is this. Do you know what "proximity seeking" is?
JAK:
It is a combination of ambiguous terms which mean anything you want to say they mean.Vicki:
Do you know how a child of 18 months will venture around and run back to mother's side? Or how an older child will, when afraid, run to their parent? How they need to touch base or hold on? Even hide? I look at prayer as my seeking proximity with God.JAK:
It seems quite a weak analogy, Vicki. Human psychology, human response to stimuli is a product of thousands of years of evolution. We can explain it in large measure today. A child feels insecure. A parent is a TANGIBLE, PHYSICAL, psychological thing.Vicki:
Seeking proximity in the same way a child seeks proximity with their parent. In the same way that a child talks quietly with their parent and tells them how they feel, what they think, shares their love, even "hides" by their parent's side, or asks their parent for food,or for help, or a baby cries for it's mother, that's how I see my relationship to God. Does that help you to know me better?JAK:
The parent is PRESENT. Communication has evolved to the extent that parents and children can “talk.” “God” is no parallel. Your “God” myth is a product of thousands of years of human history, human culture, human perceptions. Those are based on a variety of things....speculation validated by test and study, speculation absent any validation at all, AND a combination of both. The parent talks and the child talks also. The language they use is taught. You do not have a “relationship to God” which is anything like a parent and child. You may imagine that you do, but that is pure speculation on your part. And individuals who subscribe to particular “God mythologies” do not agree with one another on those mythologies. ...No tests, no peer reviews, no outside observers.I recommend: Mythology’s Last Gods by William R. Harwood.
Vicki:
p.s. It occurs to me that my remarks about myself may seem quite arrogant. I assure you that I don't mean them in that light. It hasn't been so very long since I've allowed myself to acknowledge certain qualities in myself. I hope I didn't come off too full of myself.JAK:
I do not think your remarks are “arrogant” in this piece, Vicki. At the same time, I do not think you can address my analysis of your “God” notions. You DO paint a God mythology of a God which must be pandered to and petitioned, which, at the same time, grants and withholds good from humans as a child might give and take back a Christmas toy.JAK
Modified by Jersey Girl! at Thu, Jan 02, 2003, 07:54:21
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