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Posted by: Vince ® 01/19/2002, 14:26:20 Author Profile Mail author |
I found a very interesting site http://www.what-the-hell-is-hell.com This has been a good source of study for me. I have surmised a few thoughts and would very much enjoy input. Satan or “evil” holds the bars of hell itself…and we have the choice to join it in this! Evil – evil is never full. It only satisfaction and pleasure can only be derived from someone or something else’s suffering and taking what is not rightfully it’s own. It is “evil’s” will to bar itself from God because it is the antitheses of God and cannot progress toward God. So in turn it is contained in its own personal hell. Continually destroying, but having nothing else to destroy but itself only. The opposite of love is hate, pleasure is pain, and selflessness is selfishness. Suppose…by your own choice you were bolted in a room where the only influence was evil. The owner of the room was Satan or “evil” itself. Outside the room is God, and God does not allow “evil” to consume any longer outside the room because what is outside the room is rightfully God’s. Note also: that everything (you included) in the room is also rightfully Gods, but he is allowing “evil” to run its own course by it’s own choosing. Satan’s or “evil’s” only satisfaction and pleasure would be the endless torture of those in the room as would be your only pleasure also because you chose to be there…otherwise why would you be there? Evil has the choice to let people out of the room, but you must ask yourself why would it? There is no “Mr. Nice guy” about Satan or “evil”. By Satan’s own choice it has turned from God as we ourselves have, and in doing this have turned from anything that is good, hopeful, lovely, etc. Hell is fitted up for evil, held together by evil and sustained by evil, which in itself is a paradox because it is ever consuming itself but never coming to an end…or is it? Isn’t it Gods will to eventually reclaim what is rightfully his? Or why would he have created it all in the first place? Which brings up another paradox…where does “eternal” punishment fit into this? And what would be the benefit of it? |
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quick reply Re: "What in the hell is Hell"...is it really eternal? -- Vince Top of thread Archive
Posted by: grendel ®
01/20/2002, 00:50:40
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the paradoxes you present have, in my opinion, easy solutions. 1)there is no hell
2)God does not exert His willthis is quite simplified, but then again, who really wants to read my long-winded reply anyways
grendel
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Please...no quick replies Re: quick reply -- grendel Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Vince ®
01/20/2002, 08:11:56
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Thanks grendal...but I'm a man that has been raised believing in eternal punishment...so your solutions are not so simple. I would very much appreciate the long-winded version of your reply. I am moving away from the concept of eternal hell, but I have to believe God is also just. There are always circumstances for our sins...the old "action reaction" theory. Just like touching a hot stove, you'll quickly learn not to do it again…I’m sure you’ve never heard this analogy before…Ha As far as you answer “God does not exert his will.” I agree… Let’s consider this reasoning. If I were to say to another person “I command you to love me” the person would undoubtedly say “I don’t even know you, why should I?” They may even say “No!”. I would then proceed to pull out my gun and threaten to kill them if they didn’t begin to love me. At this point, I would not be promoting love for me in them but only fear…in fact there are laws against this type of action. So at this point I cannot actually fathom how eternal punishment fits into the overall plan of God. Punishment and discipline, yes, but why eternal punishment why not just exterminate us completely and chalk it up to a mistake? Here’s the real question: why would anyone, of his or her own choice, turn from a loving God when they come to the actual understanding of what God really is and what separation from God actually is? Yet it happens daily!
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Re: Please...no quick replies Re: Please...no quick replies -- Vince Top of thread Archive
Posted by: grendel ®
01/21/2002, 01:55:39
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i have several problems with eternal damnation. 1)the belief that one's sins could lead to hell implies, conversely, that one's virtues or good deeds could lead to heaven; in other words, one could "earn" their way to heaven. this conflicts with my belief that salvation alone is what leads one to heaven. 2)the fundamental scriptures of nearly every religious tradition(even buddhism, surprisingly)warn of eternal damnation--but one cannot subscribe to every major religion. how is one to choose? also...are there not good and virtuous persons of every religious tradition? 3)too many people rely on the concept of heaven and hell as a basis for their ethical and moral conduct. what i would like to ask many christians is this: if God was to tell you there was no heaven and there was no hell, would you change the way you live? the way you act? the way you think? if so, then religion itself has become a means to an end, rather than an end in itself. 4)what could one person possibly do in one lifetime to warrant eternal damnation?
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Re: Please...no quick replies Re: Re: Please...no quick replies -- grendel Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Vince ®
01/21/2002, 18:04:39
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I agree (humbly) with all your statement and have only added to them by my responses. Grendal:
i have several problems with eternal damnation. 1)the belief that one's sins could lead to hell implies, conversely, that one's virtues or good deeds could lead to heaven; in other words, one could "earn" their way to heaven. this conflicts with my belief that salvation alone is what leads one to heaven.response:
Bear with me a bit here...lets consider eternal damnation "hell" as something different than the modern day Christian concept. Let consider "hell" as punishment like a father punishes his child when he does wrong. Obviously a father would not punish his child eternally, but would punish enough to bring about correction. Now assuming we take a creationist stand point and know that we all come from one man "Adam" and knowing we are all connected through lineage. Adam disobeyed God, and so through one man sin we have all become sinners and all worthy of punishment "death". Most of us might think "Wow...make one mistake and boom your dead" pretty harsh circumstances. Well, God obviously knew this before he created man since he is omniscient. So his plan was then to introduce his Son "Jesus" perfect and blameless...like Adam use to be. Note: Adam and Jesus are the only two recorded men that did not have an earthly father. Anyway, I digress, through one man all became sinners then also through one man all became saved. Could this be the whole plan...all men restored to their original state of perfection? It would seem a logical conclusion.Grendal:
2)the fundamental scriptures of nearly every religious tradition(even buddhism, surprisingly)warn of eternal damnation--but one cannot subscribe to every major religion. how is one to choose? also...are there not good and virtuous persons of every religious tradition?response:
I do agree with you on every religion having good and virtuous people. I would say their goodness and virtue does not come from within them, but from God working through them.Grendal:
3)too many people rely on the concept of heaven and hell as a basis for their ethical and moral conduct. what i would like to ask many Christians is this: if God was to tell you there was no heaven and there was no hell, would you change the way you live? the way you act? the way you think? if so, then religion itself has become a means to an end, rather than an end in itself.response:
I do agree that ethical and moral conduct should not be based on what you can get out of it or as a result of fear of punishment. It has to be motivated by love. Example: have you ever done something for someone just for the pure joy of pleasing them. This is the motivator for ethical and moral conductGrendal:
4)what could one person possibly do in one lifetime to warrant eternal damnation?response:
Since God is perfect and also just, he cannot allow imperfection into the game plan. Consider if you have two glasses one pure water the other with just a bit of red dye. Once you mix the two neither are pure any longer. But, God is also merciful and loving so he has allowed a way to throw the red stained water out and be refilled with pure, and since God is also infinite he can do this without any loss.
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and I disagree (humbly)... Re: Re: Please...no quick replies -- Vince Top of thread Archive
Posted by: rdl ®
01/21/2002, 21:35:12
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response:
Bear with me a bit here...lets consider eternal damnation "hell" as something different than the modern day Christian concept. Let consider "hell" as punishment like a father punishes his child when he does wrong. Obviously a father would not punish his child eternally, but would punish enough to bring about correction. Now assuming we take a creationist stand point and know that we all come from one man "Adam" and knowing we are all connected through lineage. Adam disobeyed God, and so through one man sin we have all become sinners and all worthy of punishment "death". Most of us might think "Wow...make one mistake and boom your dead" pretty harsh circumstances. Well, God obviously knew this before he created man since he is omniscient. So his plan was then to introduce his Son "Jesus" perfect and blameless...like Adam use to be. Note: Adam and Jesus are the only two recorded men that did not have an earthly father. Anyway, I digress, through one man all became sinners then also through one man all became saved. Could this be the whole plan...all men restored to their original state of perfection? It would seem a logical conclusion.
So what are you saying? That we are no longer sinners, no more possibility of hell because we are all "saved" by Jesus? We're all just perfect now? Or, we are perfect again but we make irritating little mistakes now and then (like your child analogy) and God has to smack us to get us back in (perfection) line? So a little time spent in "time out" (hell) is just a loving corrective measure.
Another question: What about all those folks who had the misfortune to live in that period between Adam and Jesus? They weren't "saved" yet, just damned. Bummer, glad I didn't live then.
response:
I do agree with you on every religion having good and virtuous people. I would say their goodness and virtue does not come from within them, but from God working through them.Then where does the badness and sin come from? Satan? And if the goodness isn't from us and the badness isn't either, then why do we need to be punished (see paragraph above) And furthermore, what's the point, we obviously have no control over our behavior at all.
response:
I do agree that ethical and moral conduct should not be based on what you can get out of it or as a result of fear of punishment. It has to be motivated by love. Example: have you ever done something for someone just for the pure joy of pleasing them. This is the motivator for ethical and moral conductYes, that would be one reason for acting in a moral, ethical way. But it is by no means the only reason (I would hope) Sometimes, one behaves well simply because that's the way one wishes to behave. And that knowledge comes from inside, not from anything anyone has ever told one. Gosh, I know people who are just kind and pleasant and considerate of others because they just are. Not because they want to impress anyone or please anyone.
response:
Since God is perfect and also just, he cannot allow imperfection into the game plan. Consider if you have two glasses one pure water the other with just a bit of red dye. Once you mix the two neither are pure any longer. But, God is also merciful and loving so he has allowed a way to throw the red stained water out and be refilled with pure, and since God is also infinite he can do this without any loss.I'm afraid you lost me in this analogy. How exactly does God purge the red out of the water?
respectfully,
rdl
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let's get to the bottom of it. Re: and I disagree (humbly)... -- rdl Top of thread Archive
Posted by: vince ®
01/23/2002, 18:32:37
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Rdl…I appreciate your responses and am taking them seriously! But, all those questions aside for now. You and I are not on the same playing field. I’ve read through some of your previous posts and it would appear that you are atheist (yes or no?). refer following-> Vicki:
If God is all in my head, then what is the difference between you and me? For if I'm really praying to my own self in my own head and still reaching the same conclusions with regards to decision making and how I go about living my life, if I make choices that help me to stretch and grow, that challenge me-- then why should it trouble you so?Rdl:
**doesn't trouble me at all...unless you claim that your conclusions are superior to mine because yours came from a "higher power"If this is the case, let’s move our discussion in another direction. We first must settle any differences in worldview before we move on to the fact/fiction of heaven or hell, sin and circumstance. So, not to bore you if I haven’t already, let’s discuss the origination of all that exists in the world today.
1.) Where did we come from, and who are we?
Vince: There is a transcendent God who created the universe.
2.) What has gone wrong with the world?
Vince: The Fall -- Through one man Adam’s sin all men are born sinners
3.) What can we do to fix it?
Vince: Redemption – Through one man Jesus men can be saved.
Following text cited from Bible:
Romans 10
9 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.
11 As the Scripture says, "Every one who trusts in him will not be ashamed."
12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile--the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him,
13 for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."Feel free to answer these three questions in your own words and to quote any text to support your answers.
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Re: by cricky... Re: let's get to the bottom of it. -- vince Top of thread Archive
Posted by: rdl ®
01/23/2002, 23:30:24
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...you are an observant kinda guy. Yes indeed, I am an atheist. I'm not sure I understand your remark about "being on the same playing field. Are you intimating that we exist in different realities? That being said, I would be happy to answer your three questions. I can't promise that you will be thrilled by the answers and since I won't be asserting anything I don't see any reason (or actually have the ability) to quote any text (especially from that book you call the "word of god") to support my answers. 1.) Where did we come from, and who are we?
Vince: There is a transcendent God who created the universe.
rdl: We are homo-sapiens. We evolved from the primal ooz along with everything else on this planet...or at least that's the best explanation I've heard so far, with the most supporting evidence. If another theory comes along that has better evidence and reasoning to support it I'll be happy to listen.2.) What has gone wrong with the world?
Vince: The Fall -- Through one man Adam’s sin all men are born sinners
rdl: I wasn't aware anything had gone wrong with this world. Could you please elaborate? I always felt the world was what it is. It could use improvement, I'm sure. Feeding the hungry and not polluting everything in sight would be a good start. Random distruction of the ecosystem is also a bad thing. Not reproducing like bunny rabbits would help matters some.
3.) What can we do to fix it?
Vince: Redemption – Through one man Jesus men can be saved.
rdl: ummm...saved from what? Overpopulation? Pollution? Failing natural resources?Following text cited from Bible:
Romans 10
9 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.
11 As the Scripture says, "Every one who trusts in him will not be ashamed."
12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile--the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him,
13 for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."
Feel free to answer these three questions in your own words and to quote any text to support your answers.
"Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored"
[Aldous Huxley. "Proper Studies]"It is undesirable to believe a proposition when there is no reason whatsoever for supposing it to be true"
[Bertrand Russell]"The recipe for perpetual ignorance is: be satisfied with your opinions and content with your knowledge."
[Elbert Hubbard. "The Philistine"]"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away"
[Philip K. Dick]I am an atheist because there is no evidence for the existence of God. That should be all that needs to be said about it: no evidence, no belief."
[Dan Barker. "Losing Faith in Faith: From Preacher to Atheist"]I doubt that I have given you any satifaction with my response, but there you are.
regards,
rdl
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We're thinking now! Re: Re: by cricky... -- rdl Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Vince ®
01/24/2002, 22:33:12
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Rdl:
...you are an observant kinda guy. Yes indeed, I am an atheist. I'm not sure I understand your remark about "being on the same playing field. Are you intimating that we exist in different realities?Response:
I’m merely saying that we are not playing by the same rules. One man playing soccer would not compete well with a man playing football. Though it might be interesting? I align my arguments on the belief of a God, whom created man, which of course would make me very interested in what he might be instructing me. You align your arguments on the belief that we have evolved from a “primal ooz “ which allows you to believe and act however you may see fit on any given day. This of course taken to its extreme would allow you and me to do just about anything we like without any authority to answer to.Rdl:
That being said, I would be happy to answer your three questions. I can't promise that you will be thrilled by the answers and since I won't be asserting anything I don't see any reason (or actually have the ability) to quote any text (especially from that book you call the "word of god") to support my answers.Response:
Any text is open game…I myself will read many authors with many ideas. I would consider myself bias if I did not include the Bible, since it is regarded by many scholars and layman as the inerrant “word of God”. Of course other text can be regarded as truth and gleaned from as well.Lets move on->
1.) Where did we come from, and who are we?
rdl: We are homo-sapiens. We evolved from the primal ooz along with everything else on this planet...or at least that's the best explanation I've heard so far, with the most supporting evidence. If another theory comes along that has better evidence and reasoning to support it I'll be happy to listen.
Response:
Let’s work on this one…if we can come to an agreement here the other two may answer themselves? Your answer is one I’ve learned in school, and have considered at length. The logic of it, or the idea I can’t grapple with is, where did the “primal ooz” come from? I’m sure as a thinking man, you have ask yourself this also? When moving back in time, past the “big bang” or the “shrinking and expanding universe”, you would eventually have to start with nothing…and we know that it is, scientifically a fact, that nothing can come from nothing.The other side of the coin would only leave that of an intelligent designer. We do not question the fact that when we get into our car in the morning, and speed off to work, that many engineers did not, at one time, press over a drawing board and design this wonder of a machine. Yet we question the design of the human eyeball? Why such a leap backwards in logic, when considering something, perhaps, 100X more complex?
Let’s consider the information theory (research that investigates how information is transmitted). Both chance and law of nature lead to structures with low information content, wheras DNA has a very high information content *(The Mystery of Life’s Origin; Pearcy and Thaxton). A structure or message is said to have high or low information content depending on the number of instructions needed to tell you how to construct it. In nature, both random patterns and regular patterns (like ripples on a beach) have low information content…make one ripple then do it again. By contrast, DNA has a very high information content. It would be impossible to produce a simple set of instructions telling a chemist how to synthesize the DNA of even the simplest bacterium. You would have to specify every chemical “letter,” one by one and there are literally millions. So DNA has a completely different structure from the products of either chance of natural law.The conclusion is that there are no known physical laws capable of creating a structure like DNA with high information content. Based on both the latest scientific knowledge and on ordinary experience, we know only one cause that is up to the task, an intelligent agent. Only an intelligent person can type out “The Night before Christmas” or devise a computer program or compose a musical score. And only an intelligent cause could create the information contained in the DNA molecule *(How Now Shall We Live; Charles Colson)
Rdl:
I doubt that I have given you any satifaction with my response, but there you are.
regards,Response:
On the contrary, I have drawn much satisfaction from your responses, and appreciate the time you’ve taken to reply.Suppose a fish evolves lungs. What happens then? Does it move up to the next evolutionary stage? Of course not. It drowns.
[The late Christian evangelist Frances Schaeffer]Thanks
--Vince
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Re: first, my apologies... Re: We're thinking now! -- Vince Top of thread Archive
Posted by: rdl ®
01/30/2002, 22:39:26
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Vince,
...for not responding to you sooner. The thread moved to page three and I just didn't think there was any interest left. Irregardless...in case you are still lurking about and as an exercise in thinking for myself, I'd like to respond.Your DNA postulate: I am, by no stretch of the imagination, a scientist (or even well versed in science) but it does not seem out of the realm of possibility to me that over a billion (give or take a few) some odd years DNA could become very complex indeed. I seem to have heard somewhere that we share a remarkable amount of common DNA with a multitude of other creatures...worms, bugs...all sorts of good stuff. (I could be wrong about this and it was genes or chromosomes that were being talked about...oh well) Regardless, I don't see any reason why the old "primal ooz" couldn't have gotten very complex, given the length of time it had to do it.
Oh, and taken to it's extreme (which allows me to act as I see fit on any given day) is really no different then the Christian who interprets the Bible however they see fit (was that a literal or a figurative statement there?...beats me...I'll just decide for myself)and then behaves however they see fit...and claims sanction from "God".If a fish evolves lungs?...why would it? It doesn't need them, has no use for them. Any individual fish that mutated and had lungs would die, not reproduce to create more fish with lungs. That really was a silly quote from Frances Schaeffer.
regards,
rdl (who, BTW, is not a thinking man)
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"What in the hell is Hell"...is it really eternal? Re: "What in the hell is Hell"...is it really eternal? -- Vince Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Bubbles ®
01/25/2002, 14:38:14
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Hell is eternal anguish!
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Really...? Re: "What in the hell is Hell"...is it really eternal? -- Bubbles Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Vince ®
01/25/2002, 21:00:06
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Bubles:
Hell is eternal anguish!Response:
I beleive it do be anguish, but why do you think it is eternal?
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