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Posted by: Jenny ® 10/26/2002, 13:06:28 Author Profile Mail author |
Not why Christianity is irrational For many people, myself included - apostate Mormon, we grew up with a single 'perfect' teaching. The teaching of the love of Jesus Christ. The miraculous transformation that love in the heart can bring about in a person, can manifest in their life. I was a special needs child, shuffled from family to family, siblings spread all over the globe, separated from parents, indeed the implications were that the parents were nothing to write home about. The secret life of the unknown - the unwanted - the unwatched. The miraculous transformation that love in the heart brings has a hard time reaching the child who doesn't have a home. The love of people is fickle and base. It may momentarily touch the deepest reccesses, but it comes and goes, the ebb and flow of inconsistancy. The religious doctrines that I was brought up with demands a lot of faith in other human beings; it demands the big 'O' obedience that is. And not obedience to the perfect love, but obedience to other men's (and I don't use men in any way other than literal) supposed interpretations of that love. Or how that love manifest in other men's lives. There was a thing besides the obedience to the love's subsidiaries that bothered me to, it was the exclusion of those who don't bow to the subsidiary authority from the fullest grace atainable. So somewhere in between Seattle and Mesa the idea of an all inclusive love settled irrevocably in the nether regions of the heart. But it didn't have a name. Was it "dragonfly" or "mountain" or "collective conciousness" or "Om"? Science had reared a beautiful finger or two displaying such a plethora of ideas and even better truths that she deserves a huge portion of the pie, perhaps the whole darn thing. Still all in all, the wonderous kindness of loving everyone always to the best of my abilities was somehow - is somehow - not as effective without a name. What better name than Jesus Christ! My first love, that secret inner connection that the unwatched child allows herself. So I carried my sorry butt to church, the first church I found. Funny, it was an Evangelical congregation. The very kind of congregation I remember being terrified of as a child because of the lack of 'reverence'. I don't play pretend, so I let them know right away that I am agnostic just looking for some people who believed in Jesus like I did. That suits them fine, I can sit, listen, wave my arms or not. There is about 10-16 people who attend services regularly, much more managable to a people watcher than a congregation of 100 or more. I see how the power, the love that is perfect - the idea of a love that is perfect, help these people. I see that the choice they make to believe that something so perfect does and can exist helps them overcome their various afflictions. I see that allowing the idea of perfection improves who they are. I know that I don't believe the same things they believe, but there is a fundamental unalterable common thread that we cling to, they with toppings and me without. I choose to keep Jesus Christ, because that is the name of love, of perfection - the perfection I need to honor in my life, the perfection that I want to emplify in what I do and who I am. So hey, are their anymore agnostic Christians out there? |
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Replies to this message
Sweet Jen, Re: Why Christianity is rational -- Jenny Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Jersey Girl ®
10/26/2002, 13:33:08
Author Profile Mail author
Vicki
Modified by Jersey Girl at Sat, Oct 26, 2002, 14:14:58
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What is Agnostic Re: Sweet Jen, -- Jersey Girl Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Jenny ®
10/26/2002, 22:21:40
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Is suits me fine. It really doesn't matter to me whether or not there is a continuation after death. I hope there is somehow, but I doubt it. The brain holds the function of planning, of organization. How then, after the body is dead, would there be any thought as we know it? That is one of the things that Joseph Smith thought through (at least I think he did). He gave God a physical body of sorts, which would include a mind and the ability to communicate with us mortals on some level that we could recognize. God as pure Spirit doesn't jive with a thinking, planning, organizing being. How would pure spirit think to arraing physical material?
Its good to 'see' you again to Vicki. :)
Modified by Jenny at Sat, Oct 26, 2002, 23:36:09
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Forever Re: What is Agnostic -- Jenny Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Jersey Girl ®
10/27/2002, 07:34:56
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You calm me, sweet, and for that alone you have my gratitude. In all my years I haven't learned the art of containing myself and while some people like that part of me, it ususally gets me in trouble.
What I'm hearing you say is this. And I admit I'll probably project my own thinking on to yours but give me a listen? You're saying that you're not sure there is a God and you feel no sense of urgency about that. You feel no particular need to confine your spirituality to organized religion. You've chosen a philosophy for living based on Christ's example, the central concept of which is love. If that is what you're saying, then we are the same.
Let me express an additional self desire knowing it will strip me down to bare bones here but the older I get the less concerned I seem to be with what people think of me. Life is too short to be what people would like me to be instead of who I really am.
The concept of forever appeals to me deeply. No one means forever when they say it. The only exception I know is the relationship between mother and child. I am what I know. I want forever. I would like to believe that "something" could be forever, a relationship, and I guess I've come to the conclusion that only a divine being could actually pull it off largely because no one else has shown me they are willing to clear life's hurdles and meet me on the other side. Just when I think that someone couldn't possible sink lower in their conduct toward me, they dig in their heels and prove me wrong. The only message I've received consistently is "I love you forever so long as loving you suits my purpose and when I decide the time is right, I'll hurt you so long as hurting you suits my purpose".
Well, I don't suppose you opened this post expecting to hear my inner voice talking out loud! Forgiveness and forever are what I hope for. Love is how I try to live, what I need most and what I withhold most from others. Is there a shrink in the house? How bout a lawyer?
Victoria
;)
Modified by Jersey Girl at Sun, Oct 27, 2002, 10:36:53
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Hey Sistah Re: Forever -- Jersey Girl Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Jenny ®
10/27/2002, 10:58:54
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"Well, I don't suppose you opened this post expecting to hear my inner voice talking out loud!"
Not really, but what a pleasant bonus! Thanks for that Vicki.
Peace,
Jenny
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Love Out Loud Re: Hey Sistah -- Jenny Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Jersey Girl ®
10/27/2002, 11:24:55
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I have to tell you this first. I've taken several "spiritual gifts inventories" and two things consistently rose to the top...encouragement and discernment :)!
I don't intend to influence you since what I said was largely coming from my own head, maybe I "heard" what I wanted to "hear"? But your words hit home.I see nothing whatsoever wrong in adopting a philosophy based on Christ's ministry. Why not? His teachings contain rules, they contain boundaries, and principals. Sounds like a philosophy to me! So, there is a philosophy that encourages kindness, compassion, patience (I get an "F" in that column), to resolve differences, to be gentle, to set aside pride (another "F" there, but it's normally based on self protection), to take care of people, to exercise self control and restraint (I'm getting alot of "F's" here just so you know) to share what we have and the greatest of these principles is love. Well, you can get yourself hurt with it, have people take advantage of you because of it...but they'll do it anyway. Why not determine to develop those qualities, act on them, and love out loud? Life is too short not to love, not to touch others. Sometimes when they touch back it hurts and if we're fortunate, that touch feeds us both.
Vicki
p.s. Sorry for the ramble, I seem to be a little messed up lately. Doesn't show, does it? :)
Modified by Jersey Girl at Sun, Oct 27, 2002, 11:25:38
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*love* Re: Love Out Loud -- Jersey Girl Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Jenny ®
10/28/2002, 07:08:30
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I know this is public forum, but I guess, since this thread IS on the rationality of Christianity - or adhereance to Christianity - or something or other like that I can post this post. I want to tell about 'church' today, actually I want to tell you because I think you'll appreciate it.
As I said, most services contain around 10 people, sometimes a few more. Pastor Robert runs the church, rents the space, etc. out of his own pocket book (he owns a mortgage company). Well honestly his pocket book extends to his mothers, a local realtor who deals in corporate property. She (Barbara) plays the keyboard and sings old Southern gospel hymns. Her piano playing is trained by gospel hymn playing - the timing is a little messed and the cadence...well I love Barbara dearly her fingers fly quickly though not expertly. Her voice was professionally trained though. It isn't particularly strong but it is clear and wonderfully intuitive (as if a voice could be intuitive). Pastor Bob, Robert's father who runs a mission/school in Haiti has been visiting for the last the last two months. He is a doctor of history, doctor of theology extremely interesting and plays the bass and sings with his ex-wife Barbara. Pastor Robert is young, 38 or so, extremely good looking from a family of southern gentle pastors. He is well educated and kind - not the fire of his mother or the water of his father - and he knows his duty is to preach to the people, help us be better.
All of that background to get to this, today was Pastor Roberts homecoming, he has been in TX and OK for three weeks seminars, old friends, etc. I offered (silly me) to bring breakfast for anybody who wanted to show up early and fellowship. (I have this "I can do everything and anything" complex.) I like to show up early and converse with Pastor Bob over coffee, his grasp of the political implications of various economic realities is interesting and provocative. Anyway, seeing as service is only around 10 or so people I figures, heck breakfast for 10 people no problem.
Last night I put together a bread pudding. It was the richest bread pudding I've ever made, heavy cream, 1/4 cup of pure vanilla, sweet french bread. This morning I got up early (well, I always get up early) and made homemade bisquits, gravy, stuck the pudding in the oven, made a lemon sauce (I decided against a brandy sauce because of the alcoholic in the congregation) for the pudding. It was a lot of work, but so much fun.
Wouldn't you know, over thirty people showed up for breakfast. LOL. Luckily, I'm a little of an over-doer and there was enough food for everybody (though we ran out of coffee - I was going to go New Orleans style with some chickory but..enough of that).
So Pastor Robert had a hard time starting a sermon, his mother and father are there - it's your DUTY Robert. Finally he gets into the swing with his favorite subject. He loves to talk about giving up, giving all up every decision every thought. He has such a hard time with it. He reassures himself in every sermon that the only way he can be fulfilled is to give up his type A personality and answer only to the will of God. People are touched because they want to hear this. The congregation is full of people needing healing, health, bad thoughts, unkind fate, etc. Pastor Robert finally comes to his own holding the hand of Rita. Rita's child is dying of cancer - luekemia - and suddenly Pastor Robert is full of perfect words of solace and peace, we don't know the mysteries of life and death, we can look at life this way or that way.
To soon it is time for communion. I slip into the back room, and straighten up the morning mess. Young Earl, comes to offer me a piece of bread as he always does and I resist the temptation to allign myself with these lovely people totally.
I can't wait for next Sunday.
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Re: *love* Re: *love* -- Jenny Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Craig C. ®
10/28/2002, 07:33:17
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Thank you for sharing that. It does show the value of religious community. For some reason, it also reminded me of my favorite Christmas movie - "it's a Wonderful Life".
Craig
By the way, I think you may have a bit of a crush on this "young", "extremely good looking", "interesting", and "provocative" Pastor Robert. Watch out! ;)
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Craig Re: Re: *love* -- Craig C. Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Jersey Girl ®
10/28/2002, 07:48:27
Author Profile Mail author
Vicki
(not smiling)
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Jersey Girl Re: Craig -- Jersey Girl Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Craig C. ®
10/28/2002, 08:22:01
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Sorry to have offended you with my comment. I meant no harm. Did you even read the first part of what I posted?
My comments on the good pastor were only meant as a little tease. Sorry it came across to you as cavalier or paternal.
Craig
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One more thing... Re: Jersey Girl -- Craig C. Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Craig C. ®
10/28/2002, 08:27:44
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Professor Re: Jersey Girl -- Craig C. Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Jersey Girl ®
10/28/2002, 10:08:59
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I know you were teasing. That's exactly what bothered me. My former pastor is quite attractive. Dark hair, soft brown eyes, an *engaging smile, *well educated, *has an incredible sense of humor, is *kind, *generous with his time, sacrificially worked like a dog for his congregation and *I spent many hours in discussion with him. I could say many of those same things about you. Infact I starred them. Doesn't mean I have a *crush* on either of you. It just means I can appreciate and admire (some) men and I'm not dead!
Vicki
p.s. Women relate stories far differently than men.
Modified by Jersey Girl at Mon, Oct 28, 2002, 10:12:21
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Friend Re: Professor -- Jersey Girl Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Craig C. ®
10/28/2002, 11:03:25
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Yes, it is probably true that women and men tell (and understand) stories in different ways . But if I was so wrong in my reading-between-the-lines why did Marg (a person of the female persuasion) have a similar (actually even stronger) perception? And what would be the harm if Jenny did in fact like this man in a romantic way? I don't feel that it would detract from her story if she did.
Besides that, I really liked Jenny's story - and for the same reasons I think you liked it - I like the sense of warmth and caring that is so clearly evident in this little group of people.
Craig
BTW - I appreciate your kind comments ( and I am sure glad that you are "not dead"!).
Modified by Craig C. at Mon, Oct 28, 2002, 11:07:54
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Peace and an apology Re: Friend -- Craig C. Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Jersey Girl ®
10/28/2002, 11:54:34
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Please forgive me for my passionate response to your comments. I am sensitive to remarks that seem to demean females and you know that about me. On the other hand, I know you. I know you are not prone to sexist remarks nor do you display any hint of a glimmer of sexism in your posts. My knee jerk response had more to do with pressures and disappointments elsewhere and I was wrong to vent it at you. I've been dealing with an extraordinary amount of pain and I'm sorry that I let it fly your way.
Yes, I liked Jenny's post for the same reasons that you did. It was warm, detailed and put us right there in the picture. It made me feel something nurturing. I regret that other feelings disrupted my peace and that I projected them on to you. That is the truth of it. Again, I'm sorry.
Jersey Girl
Modified by Jersey Girl at Mon, Oct 28, 2002, 11:56:50
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Re: *love* Re: Re: *love* -- Craig C. Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Jenny ®
10/28/2002, 11:31:52
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About Pastor Robert, he IS very attractive and kind, it is his father Pator Dr. Bob who is provocative and interesting though. Maybe if I could just combine the two...Just kidding. It is an interesting thought, but no I don't think so. I got over the "challenge" thing a long time ago. I have a rule and ONLY fall (if falling is imagining a life together) for totally unatainable distant men. It is much simpler, no complicated scenarios to work out, no worry about not having love returned, no problem with getting rid of them when they become boring - poof they've already disapeared.
Peace,
Jennyjo
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Re: *love* Re: Re: *love* -- Jenny Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Martin ®
10/28/2002, 14:00:22
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I like some of the things you've been saying, but I'm afraid I have to draw the line at being even indirectly referred to with the word "poof", however boring I may be!
;)
- Martin
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*smile* Re: Re: *love* -- Martin Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Jenny ®
10/29/2002, 08:13:06
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irksome, harassing, tormenting even, agonizing, a tease, mabe even a bit malevolent.
At other times, or even at the same time, you can be:
enchanting, amiable, sweet, pleasing, charming, delightsome, captivating, fascinating,
But boring...never - well not yet anyway ;)
Jen
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Re: *love* Re: *love* -- Jenny Top of thread Archive
Posted by: marg ®
10/28/2002, 07:38:19
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Re: *love* Re: Re: *love* -- marg Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Jenny ®
10/28/2002, 12:21:33
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While I admit that an attractive pastor does make sermons more interesting, I am quite confident that I am not romantically attracted to Pastor Robert. But, you might be right that religion isn't my main interest. Though the religion is interesting, the people are more interesting. Pastor Robert and his family are the most interesting to me.
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Re: *love* Re: Re: *love* -- Jenny Top of thread Archive
Posted by: marg ®
10/28/2002, 14:14:37
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It's wonderful, you've become acquainted with people you admire, who give you joy and add positively to your life. Sounds like you've found a nice group of people.
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Finally, a reply Jenny Re: *love* -- Jenny Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Jersey Girl ®
10/29/2002, 13:08:27
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Sorry I took so long to reply here. First, let me tell you how much I enjoyed reading your post, you made me feel like I was there! I hope that you have considered keeping a journal of these days and experiences that are so satisfying to you.
Your story is one of contentment in what you've found and if that is provided to you through fellowship with your new church family, the love philosophy of Christ or theology itself, I say pursue it! I am fond of telling people to "do what feeds you". This feeds you.
Jenny, I don't know you all that well but I know this much. A large part of who you are is a nurturer. You like taking care of people and it sounds like you've found a family that nurtures you in return. It could well be the perfect marriage of your gifts and your needs.
If anyone tells you that you aren't rational about your choice to join this congregation because you're agnostic tell them they are wrong. You bowed out of communion because it doesn't "fit" you. Instead you made use of your time to take care of your church family in service to them. You are remaining wholly true to yourself and exercising your integrity by that act.
When I feel spiritually disconnected I don't go to church at all. I send myself to a neutral corner to think it out or wait until that period of disconnect passes. I recall several years ago I had gone back home 3 years after my my Mothers death. After the service I showed my girls the dogwood tree planted during my Mother's memorial service (which I could not attend because I was too sick), I took them round the church and told them how at Easter the rails of the alter were lined with pansies and about the chocolates given out to the children each Christmas (like hershey kisses with swirls). I took them down to the kitchen and casually mentioned that was where our Girl Scout troop met each week and showed them where we stood and sang at closing and then my heart sunk. I stayed for the pot luck and afterwards while people visited with eachother I slipped back to the kitchen. I stood there and in the quiet of my head, I grieved. I hadn't had a chance to grieve in all of those three years and it all flooded out of me.
I filled up the sink and started to wash the pot luck dishes. The Pastor came to tell me I was a "guest" and that I didn't need to do that. I told him that I did. Those people, who are now elderly, faithfully taught me each week. When I moved away they took care of Ma when I wasn't there. They took my place. Washing their dishes was a simple act of gratitude.
There is more going on in a church, or can be, than sermons. If you are fortunate there is a loving family. There are memories of pansies, chocolates, Christmas caroling, and warmth, and nerves from having to sing before the congregation, and there is grieving in the kitchen for the people, now gone, whose voices you still here singing "Taps" and tears in the dishwater.
One year I wrote a letter to my Mother for Mother's Day. One of the memories I shared was of us in Spring walking to church and as I followed behind her looking at the holes made by her high heels ahead of mine. That little church was my family when I had none. It was the only consistency I knew. When the bottom fell out from under me (and it did), it was the only thing that remained unchanged and what I could count on.
There is nothing wrong and everything right about what you are doing. While others go through their life starving, let this feed you and fill you up. Only a full heart can give to another. And only those who have experienced starvation can fully appreciate what it means to be full enough to have something left over to give. Enjoy the love of your church family. Live your life in ways that feed you and allow you to feed others...and I don't mean the bread pudding! If God is God, he will show himself to you. If He doesn't exist, you will have lived your life loving and allowing yourself to be loved. There can be nothing wrong in that!
Love,
Vicki
Modified by Jersey Girl at Wed, Oct 30, 2002, 06:09:49
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Dear Jenny Re: *love* -- Jenny Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Gunnar ®
10/29/2002, 16:25:15
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Gunnar
Modified by Gunnar at Tue, Oct 29, 2002, 17:43:13
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The value in religion Re: Dear Jenny -- Gunnar Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Jenny ®
10/30/2002, 06:14:58
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I hope you and your family are doing well.
Yes that is it, the value, not the rational! This idea of accepting, loving and helping each other through hard times and emotional trauma ought to be the central core of religious practice and belief. This is the one thing about religion that is unquestionably relevant. Amen :-)
Jenny
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Question Re: Dear Jenny -- Gunnar Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Bahman ®
10/30/2002, 07:22:18
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Re: An answer Re: Question -- Bahman Top of thread Archive
Posted by: JAK ®
10/30/2002, 10:58:35
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The answer, from my perspective, is “yes” to your question. People who share goals, convictions, and who simply enjoy one another can accomplish feeling, caring, and loving. It is by no means a religious only setting. Artists of various sorts find those feelings in common and share concern for one another. That concern is not linked to some dogma of religion.
You asked if such feelings could be in other settings. Of course they can and are.
JAK
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Correction Re: Re: An answer -- JAK Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Bahman ®
10/30/2002, 11:52:26
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I suppose the answer is still YES. And I'll be happy to hear more confirmation of this.
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Empathy through common pain/hardship Re: Correction -- Bahman Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Jenny ®
10/30/2002, 12:31:26
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Sharing a common pain or trial unites people in an intimate way that is hard to replicate through any other means – pain is always felt personally and is the great changer in people. Yet, after the shared commonality has diminished its hold, though the sentiments of togetherness and understanding aren’t forgotten entirely, the deep-seated unity is gone and the differences remain. Prisoners, who would never find themselves associating with each other in a natural environment, often find themselves associating and coming to understand even respect people that they had previously held in high contempt. After release though, the commonalities diminish because the great unifier - common oppression - falls in importance to current concerns. Refugees from various countries thrown together, overcome their aversions and prejudices, uniting in the common bond of the oppressed or the disenfranchised or the nationless. That particular unity, the togetherness of common pain, allows for empathy (based on similarities) which can not be recreated any other way. Empathy-charity is the strongest unifier.
The unity found in common belief is fundamentally different. The empathy for a common pain is not present. For the unity in common belief to unify in a strong way, that common belief must encompass a very core area of a person’s understanding of who they are. And then, unless there is a common separation from others, there is not the natural empathetic relations tying the people together.
Jennyjo
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Re: Empathy through common pain/hardship Re: Empathy through common pain/hardship -- Jenny Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Bahman ®
10/30/2002, 13:25:32
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"The unity found in common belief is fundamentally different. The empathy for a common pain is not present. For the unity in common belief to unify in a strong way, that common belief must encompass a very core area of a person’s understanding of who they are."
Now, don't you think there are other instances of "common belief" that may accomplish the same end?
Aside from theoretical speculations (that is what I am doing, anyway) I'd like to hear from experiences of non-believers in this repect.
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Re: Empathy through common pain/hardship Re: Re: Empathy through common pain/hardship -- Bahman Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Jenny ®
10/30/2002, 14:04:47
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A common goal, save the whales or whatever, aligns a people in an intimate way. The intimacy depends soley on how deeply each individual feels that that cause defines them. Because the goal is secondary to survival the effort to let it encompass a great portion of a person's existance creates a need for validation. Validation is found in others with who extend like effort. This separation from others is where the common bond is the strongest.It is hard for a group to keep the purity of their original bond if original bond relys on strengths (bonds of friendship, common interest, like interests). Almost inevitably they will find things that separate them from society or humanity, differences to expound on - most notably in pains, hardships, differences. This is natural, yet the value of the bond is lessened with the advent of this intrusion - though the participants might feel validation from it.
Am I rambling?
Jenny
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Bottom line? Re: Re: Empathy through common pain/hardship -- Jenny Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Bahman ®
10/30/2002, 23:53:33
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And when you say, "This is natural, yet the value of the bond is lessened with the advent of this intrusion - though the participants might feel validation from it." Does it apply to religious bonds too?
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Absolutely Re: Bottom line? -- Bahman Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Jenny ®
10/31/2002, 06:39:40
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Closing? Re: Absolutely -- Jenny Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Bahman ®
10/31/2002, 09:52:47
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BTW, I consulted my wife too, and I'll let her have the last words! She says, and I vouch for it, that their organization AAUW (American Association of University Women) is just like a religion with respect to friendship, caring, etc., not among themselves but to others (even overseas). And with that I close the case; unless of course someone wants to open it again!!
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My answer Re: Question -- Bahman Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Gunnar ®
10/30/2002, 16:35:57
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Gunnar
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Re: My answer Re: My answer -- Gunnar Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Bahman ®
10/31/2002, 00:08:24
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Very good point. I had completely forgotten this negative aspect of it.
On the other hand, one can argue that we were only focusing on the positive, in comparison to other settings. Otherwise, "we" (non-religious people) can already find a lot of fault with religion!!
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Re: Joining with you... Re: My answer -- Gunnar Top of thread Archive
Posted by: JAK ®
11/01/2002, 09:09:20
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I quite agree that “it is unfortunate that so many people think so.”
But let’s speculate as to why so many people think so. An inherent insecurity with many in religion is that only they who have religion have the capacity for “feeling, caring and loving” to the highest degree. Such notion gives them a feeling, a notion or believe that they somehow have the superior position and capacity.
In addition, your example of terrorism in the 9/11 illustration is also quite excellent.
What people can and do for one another in the face of disaster (floods, hurricanes, man-orchestrated tragedy) occurs because of some sense of universal “feeling, caring and loving.” I suspect (but of course can’t prove) that such response -- human response occurred well before those ideas today associated with religion.
The idea that only in religion can people experience particular emotional connection may be born of worry or fear that any other conclusion is a threat to their religion -- which they tend to regard as superior to all other perspectives.
JAK
Modified by JAK at Fri, Nov 01, 2002, 09:10:48
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Re: Joining with you... Re: Re: Joining with you... -- JAK Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Jersey Girl ®
11/01/2002, 09:28:34
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In your post you write that : "But let's speculate why so many people think so. An inherent insecurity with many in religion is that only they who have religion have the capacity for "feeling, caring and loving" to the highest degree." I don't understand what you mean here. Is there a way you might draw that out or re-word that so I can understand? Are you referring to self righteousness?
Vicki
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Re: Joining with you... Re: Re: Joining with you... -- Jersey Girl Top of thread Archive
Posted by: JAK ®
11/01/2002, 09:54:20
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It was not my intent to characterize just as you have raised questions here. “Feeling, caring and loving” in the best sense of those attributes may be found in the dedicated laboratory scientist such as Jonas E. Salk, an American research scientists who worked in the field of preventive medicine. He developed a vaccine that became the first effective weapon in preventing poliomyelitis. Albert B. Sabin later developed an effective oral polio vaccine.
Those individuals were not “self righteous” in the sense which you may intend the idea.
The lives they saved and the quality of life they made possible is immeasurable. They were not insecure individuals who make claims about the “best” or the “only.”
JAK
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Thanks! Re: Re: Joining with you... -- JAK Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Jersey Girl ®
11/01/2002, 13:42:20
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Vicki
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Christianity is not rational Re: Why Christianity is rational -- Jenny Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Martin ®
10/26/2002, 16:03:48
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It's great to hear from you!
Alas, it probably won't surprise you to learn that I can't agree with your analysis in the least...
There is no legitimate sense in which the kind of "comforting" or "appealing" or ostensibly "beneficial" beliefs you cherish are synonymous with "rational". A belief or set of beliefs might well be both comforting and rational, but there's no necessary correlation between them.
But while the specific beliefs you refer to are not necessarily irrational in the sense of incoherence or insanity, that most emphatically does NOT make them rational! The two words are not strict, mutually exclusive antonyms.
Your beliefs are not incoherent or insane, but neither are they rational, I'm afraid. They represent a kind of desire on your part, not reason.
Respectfully, your friend,- Martin
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If religion isn't rational... Re: Christianity is not rational -- Martin Top of thread Archive
Posted by: RC ®
10/26/2002, 21:49:39
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2. Explain how your definition of rational makes it so religious adherence is not included in the category.
3. Then explain why so many seemingly 'rational actors' still adhere to religious beliefs. (around 75-90% of the American public and 75-80% of academic professors and scientists).
(per Ramona's request: Iannacone, L., Stark, R., Finke, R., Rationality and the "Religious Mind", Economic Inquiry, July 1998, Volume 36, Issue#3, Pages 373-389)
Modified by RC at Sun, Oct 27, 2002, 03:44:50
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Re: If religion isn't rational... Re: If religion isn't rational... -- RC Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Ramona ®
10/27/2002, 01:45:14
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Regards,
Ramona
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Adhere to religion Re: If religion isn't rational... -- RC Top of thread Archive
Posted by: james ®
10/27/2002, 06:23:14
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I attended a service at the Unitarian Church where the pastor was an atheist, and quite vocal at that. I found that rather confusing as to why someone would be a pastor, profess belief in the Bible and be an atheist. Could it be that many of these people are actually atheists who still like the social function and general ideals of their respective faiths?
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RC's stats are bad: Intelligence vs Religion Re: If religion isn't rational... -- RC Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Martin ®
10/27/2002, 19:41:44
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I quote:
Our survey found near universal rejection of the transcendent by NAS natural scientists. Disbelief in God and immortality among NAS biological scientists was 65.2% and 69.0%, respectively, and among NAS physical scientists it was 79.0% and 76.3%. Most of the rest were agnostics on both issues, with few believers. We found the highest percentage of belief among NAS mathematicians (14.3% in God, 15.0% in immortality). Biological scientists had the lowest rate of belief (5.5% in God, 7.1% in immortality), with physicists and astronomers slightly higher (7.5% in God, 7.5% in immortality).The authors also write:Leuba attributed the higher level of disbelief and doubt among "greater" scientists to their "superior knowledge, understanding, and experience". Similarly, Oxford University scientist Peter Atkins commented on our 1996 survey, "You clearly can be a scientist and have religious beliefs. But I don't think you can be a real scientist in the deepest sense of the word because they are such alien categories of knowledge."As far as the inverse correlation between intelligence and religious belief, see: Fact: Intelligent people tend to be more secular
(For the record, I'm not necessarily endorsing the views expressed by the author of that page. I'd cite Beckwith directly, but his articles are not online, although I have and have read them both).
- Martin
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