Posted by: james ®
10/05/2002, 04:13:20
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Kevin, have you seen the pbs documentary, "From Jesus to Christ"? I think that might have some good information for you at least to gather some information. You might still be able to order a video tape. I don't know enough abou this to comment any further.
James
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Posted by: Alf Omega ®
10/05/2002, 08:12:26
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But I can't take credit for that recommendation, which was probably from Martin. (He recommended it again here recently.) I just last month finished it myself, and it will feature prominently in my future book recommendations.I wish Friedman had treated more than just the JEPD redaction, though. I also wish that the book were more thoroughly annotated, although it certainly makes for an easier read for the average Bible buff this way. Any follow-up recommendations, Martin?
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Posted by: Kevin ®
10/06/2002, 01:53:57
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Well, I'll be! Now I can't remember who recommended the book. It is very likely that Martin recommended it to me (sorry, Martin, for not giving you the credit!!). Martin has suggested some fabulous books in the past to me.I agree that I wish the book was a little more thorough. Not that I'm complaining about what's in there, but I think the book ought to be re-titled "Who Wrote (Part of) the Bible". However, what's in there is fascinating, and it piques my interest to keep studying the subject. Like they say in show-biz: Always leave 'em wanting more! ;)
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Posted by: Cal ®
10/08/2002, 13:24:04
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I recommended the book, though I can't remember why. Maybe it had something to do with questions about Moses' supposed authorship of the Pentateuch. In defense of its title, one might remember that a Jewish scholar like Friedman may have a point in writing about who wrote (the Hebrew) bible as if it were the Bible itself. Think about Jews who bristle at the idea that the "Old Testament" plus the "New Testament" equals "The Bible," and who'd have questions about anyone thinking the Hebrew scriptures amount only to a "part" of the Bible. As an aside, I had Friedman as a teacher when I was a freshman. It was a course on humor in literature and film. I saw my first Charlie Chaplin and Marx Brothers films in that course. And one section was on humor in Genesis. I had no clue what it meant to be a biblical scholar, and though I enjoyed his course, I couldn't believe what he said about the humor in Genesis. I guess I'd taken in too much of the seriousness about scripture we'd learned in church. I wish I could retake the course now.
Modified by Cal at Tue, Oct 08, 2002, 13:26:01
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Posted by: Alf Omega ®
10/09/2002, 00:36:16
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Even within the Hebrew bible, there are other interesting questions of authorship that Friedman ignored or barely skimmed. What about deutero- and trito-Isaiah? Who wrote the two very distinct books of Job? (And how did such dissident satire make it into the Bible?) Who's responsible for Ecclesiastes, with its world-weariness that still feel so utterly contemporary? Who wrote the psalms? The proverbs? Esther?Somebody should write a sequel (and probably has). Anybody know what it is?
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Posted by: Cal ®
10/09/2002, 07:10:49
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Alf,I think one relevant factor is that the books Friedman covers have a distinct, more central status in Jewish traditions, than these other ones. As for a book that does deal with a lot of these issues--though not all--in an interesting way, there's Robin Lane Fox's "The Unauthorized Version: Truth and Fiction in the Bible." I'm a big admirer of him, and enjoyed that book especially. You may already be aware of it. If not, he's a distinguished and somewhat iconoclastic Oxford historian of the classical world who says in the preface that he's an atheist who loves the bible, and that it's more lovable if you don't have to think it holy.
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Posted by: Kevin ®
10/09/2002, 05:14:00
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...for not giving you credit for the recommendation!!Normally, I try to remember who it is that recommends books to me. Rest assured, however, that I got a lot out of the book, and I'm very happy you mentioned it to me! Friedman did make a point that the "original" Bible consisted of only 11 books -- and he does go through those 11. So, even though he passes on some of the other Old Testament books, it's very interesting to know about the ones he mentions.
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Posted by: Cal ®
10/09/2002, 07:01:11
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I'd think that's utterly unnecessary. I actually mentioned it more because I've long regretted the missed opportunity to learn from him when I was a naive Mormon eighteen year old, imbued with a mistaken sense of what the Biblical scholarship does and what the Bible could possibly be like. We got terrible educations when it comes to scripture. At any rate, come to think of it, maybe it is misleading to sell a book of that title in a mass market dominated by consumers who think of the Hebrew Bible as the "Old Testament." But I have learned from some experience with friends that Jews often think it important to stress that they--whose forebears brought to light the ancient scripture in the first place--have an understanding of "the bible" that gets distorted in the Christian understanding. Glad you enjoyed the book. Cal
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Posted by: Kevin ®
10/11/2002, 02:06:03
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You're absolutely right. We in the "Christian" nations have a very distorted sense of Judaism -- what their scriptures are, etc.For instance, Friedman mentioned how much polemic there was surrounding the pharisees in the New Testament, and what the pharisees were really like. Upon thinking about this, I realized that the pharisees really are just two-dimensional characters in the New Testament -- the obligatory nemesis to create the necessary tension in the plot of the story. In reality, we who have been raised in the Christian paradigm know next to nothing about our parent religion, Judaism, philosophically or historically. I would sure love to study under Friedman. What a great opportunity you had! It's too bad we can't relive our youth knowing what we know now, isn't it!
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Posted by: Martin ®
10/08/2002, 20:48:56
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Thank you, Kevin and Alf, for your kind acknowledgements!In truth, while I have recommended Friedman's book several times in the past, as has Cal, an examination of the archives has revealed that our beloved Violet was apparently the first to mention and discuss the book (see Who wrote the Bible?) back in August of 2000. Hat's off, Violet!
- Martin
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Posted by: Cal ®
10/09/2002, 06:46:58
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Hey Martin,Lest I seem a little silly, let me clarify: I didn't claim to have invented the 2think Friedman recommendation. I was just referring to a specific exchange with Kevin back when. Cal
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Posted by: Martin ®
10/09/2002, 10:45:26
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Please, Cal, the very last thing I thought or was suggesting is that you or anyone else were taking credit for making the recommendation! I never imagined for a second that you claimed to have "invented" any recommendation or were claiming primacy or anything remotely like that!!I simply thought it would be nice to credit Violet for exactly what I credited her with: being the first to discuss the book with our community. I meant nothing else by my comments but to praise our mutual friend. Please note that my reply was in response to Kevin's question and not your post. Highest regards, - Martin
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Posted by: Cal ®
10/09/2002, 11:20:07
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And I'm for anything that redounds to violet's credit. I started posting here when she was in the midst of the most difficult transitions. I even posted a rather insipid but heartfelt appreciation of her contributions back in those days when I was JLS. I miss those days. I wonder, for example, where saraviv went? I think it was to philosophy grad school. Soon after Nevo showed up, and then left. Etc., etc. Cal
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Posted by: Martin ®
10/08/2002, 21:44:31
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Thank you for your mention and question, Alf!The documentary hypothesis, contrary to the desperate and frightened attacks of traditionalist scholars and their followers, is alive and very well. Friedman's book is widely (and in the view of many other scholars and writers, quite justifiably) credited with being the clearest and most accessible treatment of the thesis by a respected biblical scholar for a general audience. I found it utterly captivating, and I am delighted that you and Kevin have also found it so! The question of the dating of P is still a matter of substantial controversy, with scholars like Yehezkel Kaufmann and Friedman making persuasive arguments for a pre-exilic authorship and scholars such as Alexander Rofe almost reluctantly siding with Wellhausen's original dating of P as post-exilic. A note to interested readers who haven't yet read Who Wrote the Bible?, make sure you get the latest edition, which compellingly responds to various criticisms of Friedman's book. As for follow-ups, a natural in many respects is Burton Mack's Who Wrote the New Testament?, which I found remarkably adept and insightful even if I can't agree with a significant minority of his views and arguments (I am ever more skeptical of the idea of a historical Jesus). For a remarkably succinct and readable exposition of the absolutely compelling arguments against a historical Jesus and a brief introductory explication of the theological history of the New Testament, I recommend Earl Doherty's Challenging the Verdict: A Cross-Examination of Lee Strobel's 'The Case for Christ'. While the courtroom metaphor (one might say "conceit") is stretched a bit thin at times, and while not as rigorous and scholarly as Doherty's The Jesus Puzzle (which I can't recommend strongly enough), it is a remarkably effective, well-documented and intriguingly footnoted rebuttal of one of the most popular and acclaimed apologetic books promoting a historical Jesus. Other books I can recommend that critically examine the notion of a historical Jesus are The Jesus Mysteries: Was the 'Original Jesus' a Pagan God?, by Freke and Gandy, and Wells' The Jesus Myth. I can't wait to get around to The Bible Unearthed: Archaeology's New Vision of Ancient Israel and the Origin of Its Sacred Texts, by Israel Finkelstein and Neil Silberman. However, it's behind about 30 other books and hasn't been reviewed all that kindly, so it would be great if someone here were to read it and report back...
Regards, - Martin
Modified by Martin at Tue, Oct 08, 2002, 21:45:31
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Posted by: Jersey Girl ®
10/09/2002, 09:59:44
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Hi Kevin, I have some "old" information regarding J,E, P,&D. The book you mention sounds like it needs to go on my "stack" for winter. Was Karyn reading it as well? Just curious. Vicki p.s. Not meaning to twist this off topic but, in an earlier post I mentioned what I think are a series of books entitled "The Ancient Christian Commentary". Have you by any chance read those? You weren't posting at the time.
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Posted by: Kevin ®
10/11/2002, 01:53:34
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Hey Vicki,I'm not sure if Karyn is reading the book now or not. I hope so. It was sort of a follow-up on our discussion of the Creation story. We were debating as to whether there were two stories or merely one. (Actually, it seems we debated on a few other points, too, but this is the topic that triggered my need to be better educated.) It seems like she mentioned a book too, but I can't remember it. After I finish reading a few more books, and feel that I have a good layman's grasp of the subject, I'll go back into the archives and get her reading recommendation. Hopefully, she, too will have read some of the same books I do, and the next discussion will be more informed for both of us. As far as "Ancient Christian Commentary", no I don't recall those books. What's it about?
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