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Posted by: Jersey Girl ® 09/29/2002, 02:46:55 Author Profile Mail author |
Dear Pat, I first want to thank you for answering my questions on the threads below. I have been involved in discussions of Genesis and related topics on and off for two years this October. I cannot recall other believers who were willing to invest their time, except for hit and runs, in those discussions. My impression is that believers avoid these topics for fear that it will shake their faith somehow. Why? The OT is filled with rich literature, history, traditions, poetry, stories of great faith and perserverance, and the universal truths found in Proverbs are so universal they have creeped into our contemporary language. I suppose that in order to fully appreciate the OT in context we would have to fully understand and appreciate Jewish tradition, culture, history and heritage. I don't, but I would like to. I have not seen a single Jew post on this board. How I would like to question them! In the NT we see that Christ taught through the use of parables. Were the events described literal events? No, they are stories. We look for the underlying wisdom in them, the real life application they have to offer. In a similar way, we can look at the OT stories of creation, the flood, and the tower as legends. When read and considered in that way they are strong and powerful testimony to the awe in which the ancients interpreted their world and the humility they felt in relation to God. They are pieces of rich traditions. Why isn't that enough for us today? There is a piece of contemporary praise music used in churches today that goes, in part: My God is an awesome god
Does that not express the underlying awe of the ancients through song? I think it does. If you've sung it you know the exhalation behind it. Can we not consider the OT stories similar exhaltations? Written out and expressed through the use of story telling? Think about that. I tell stories every day to get a point across. Are the stories true? Usually not. I heard a radio broadcast not long ago where the speaker said we have a different view of Christianity and the Bible than the Church Fathers had. He said that Protestants would do well to consider what Catholisicm teaches and to study the writings of early Catholics. No, the speaker wasn't Catholic. I listed the books below on another thread "Two books and a question". I think it's highly possible that we have twisted the meaning of scripture away from what was originally intended. I invite other believers to take a serious look into that as I will this winter through my personal reading. You have to read alot during Colorado winters or go crazy! Martin, I AM a neophyte when it comes to science. I'd hate to categorize my science knowledge by grade level here publicly but I'd have to be scarily honest and courageous enough to say that it's somewhere around junior high level. Still, there are other areas in which I excel, even exceed others in the depth to which I know, understand and am able to transmit them. I would like it if you could take the same approach I use when confronted with someone who needs to know a thing about child development, psychology or behavior. I have devoted many hours in answering the questions of more than one poster on and off the board to give them the insights they need. There are actually some areas in which I shine boldly. Next time around, I should like you to take the areas in which YOU shine boldy and instead of pointing out what I don't know...give me what you know. And don't write a book! :) I have to tell you this publicly, Martin. Before I arrived here at 2think I always thought that the OT stories of Genesis, the flood and the tower, were stories. I thought that the science explanation for the origin of the universe was accurate (so far as I knew what it involved) and that evolution was true. Then, the creationist movement got hold of me. We had a speaker at our church from the ICR. He was pretty slick. I was torn between thinking of him as a slick sales person and considering what he said to be true. His name was Frank something or other. Some mucky muck from the ICR in California. Someone like me is a sitting duck for people like that. You have been a major influence in helping to undo what they did to me. I thank you and honor you for bringing me back (too slowly for your liking) full circle! I am very grateful to you for that. And satisfied now. But still, I needed to question another believer, like Pat. I hope you understand why. I still don't understand science all that well and truth be told, it bores me. But, I am strongly opposed to people like those at the ICR who get hold of people like me and take advantage of us. I wish that people like those on the threads below could realize how they're keeping these guys in business and being taken for fools. I can't recall the posters names below...Doug, Randle and perhaps jesse are involved there. Guys, have you had the ICR speak at your church? I'd seriously like to know that. If not, they will give you a slick presentation with stupid cartoons (no kidding), they will gloss over areas you might like to have known more about, make inane jokes about non-believing scientists and try to sell you books and tapes afterwards. I purchased what was called "The Defender's Study Bible". There are so many errors and contradictions in the foot notes its unbelieveable. Think carefully about what you're spending your time and money on. So Professor, it looks like I have my homework cut out for me now with the time line you gave me. Thank you for always being respectful to me, for knowing where my level is and taking me from that point on, and for being a virtual FLOOD of information! I think I've pretty much come full circle in this now. Thanks, in part, to your zest to share science, and your wise teaching methods. My hats off to you D.Q! ;) Thanks to all who participated on the threads below, and for those who may have been lurking. I hope that you learned something from them and will consider what I've said here. I'm off for the weekend, taking a break. You all keep rowing the boat! Or is it an ark ;)? Sincerely,
Modified by Jersey Girl at Sun, Sep 29, 2002, 03:45:10 |
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Re: Pat, Martin , Craig and other believers Re: Pat, Martin , Craig and other believers -- Jersey Girl Top of thread Archive
Posted by: No Fear ®
09/29/2002, 05:15:22
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RUN AWAY! RUN AWAY! Re: Re: Pat, Martin , Craig and other believers -- No Fear Top of thread Archive
Posted by: phishhead ®
09/29/2002, 06:03:45
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Does using the words of Christ to insult Re: Re: Pat, Martin , Craig and other believers -- No Fear Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Jersey Girl ®
09/30/2002, 01:31:12
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Tell me, are you willing to purchase one of the two books that I listed in the thread below "Two books and a question" and investigate the perspective and writings of the early church fathers or not? If not, why not?
Vicki
Modified by Jersey Girl at Mon, Sep 30, 2002, 01:39:18
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Re: Does using the words of Christ to insult Re: Does using the words of Christ to insult -- Jersey Girl Top of thread Archive
Posted by: No Fear ®
09/30/2002, 06:45:09
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"21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.
22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.
23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men."Now I ask you - did it bring Christ joy to address Peter as Satan? Did He love Peter?
And in response to your other question I refer you to a post below:
"If it weren't true, I would want to know. However, by the power of the holy ghost I know these things are true. This power is more convincing than sight. God has revealed to me the truthfulness of these things. Who am I to deny the power of God?
You ask if I'm afraid to explore new ideas. I am not. I have in the past, and have only discovered the philosophies of men mingled with scripture. I have discovered Satan striving to lead away the hearts of men. I think of the words of Christ (John 6:67-68) '...Will ye also go away? Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.'"
I'd rather not purchase the books you mentioned because the Spirit does not constrain me that I should do so.
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Literal Arrogance Re: Re: Does using the words of Christ to insult -- No Fear Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Jersey Girl ®
09/30/2002, 10:56:52
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I find it arrogant of you to assume the persona of Christ in order to offend another human being under the guise of superiority. Of course, your remarks to Martin below were a dodge. As were your remarks to me here. As I stated above, most believers here are unwilling to invest in discussions of Genesis and related subjects. Ususally, because they haven't any good answers to the questions posed to them or even the courage to try.
This thread was about literalism. I assume you subscribe to literalism. While we're in Matthew 16 perhaps you might interpret verse 28 for us?
Vicki
Modified by Jersey Girl at Mon, Sep 30, 2002, 11:06:50
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an interpretation Re: Literal Arrogance -- Jersey Girl Top of thread Archive
Posted by: No Fear ®
09/30/2002, 11:45:04
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Re: Pat, Martin , Craig and other believers Re: Re: Pat, Martin , Craig and other believers -- No Fear Top of thread Archive
Posted by: lonedove ®
10/01/2002, 12:35:01
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______________________________________________________
Am new, excuse me for quoting your message. I am a true christian, believer in Christ. It also makes me sad to see so much argument, and confusion to the word of God. So many are using the NIV now. I have found a lot of people, religions aren't following and going back to the Ten Commandemnts. Which IMHO should be the basis of all christians.
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Could you clarify ............ Re: Re: Pat, Martin , Craig and other believers -- lonedove Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Darr ®
10/02/2002, 15:13:43
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..........Which of the three different sets of ten commandments mentioned in the Bible do you recommend? Why not follow ALL the Levitical Laws? If you are male, why did you stop beating your wife, children and slaves, as you were commanded to do by scripture?
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Re: Could you clarify ............ Re: Could you clarify ............ -- Darr Top of thread Archive
Posted by: lonedove ®
10/02/2002, 16:02:04
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I Thou shalt have np other gpds before me.
II Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image.
III Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord, thy God in vain for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
IV Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy.
V Honor thy father and thy mother, that thy days may be long upon the land upon the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee.
VI Thou shalt not kill
VII Thou shalt not commit adultery.
VIII Thou shalt not steal
IX Thou shalt not bear false witnesses against they neighbor.
X Thou shalt not covet thy neighbors house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbors wife, nor his masterservant, nor his ox, , nor his ass, nor anything that is thy neighbors.
_____________________________________________________________
I am F and my ex husband abused me mentally and physically. I have physical handicaps. I was also molested. physically abused by my only brother from age 4-8 whom is now a preacher. He banged my head on concret saying he would kill me if I told. So I live with a severe hearing loss also. I have to live with severe pain, and the devastaion of this neurological disease, the pain of a muscle disorder, rheumatoid arthritis, heart problems. I now am trying to help others to deal with PTSD, those whom have been abused. And those whom have these diseases I have. The Holy Spirit has worked through me to bring people to the Lord.
I hope this answers you question :-( I have been through a lot. Sins of man. And I continue to strive to live my life as christlike as I can. Following these 10 commandments, I don't believe I will ever get married again, as a kind, caring christian man In their 50's is hard to find. If they are out there.
Modified by lonedove at Wed, Oct 02, 2002, 16:49:06
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God bless you, lonedove Re: Re: Could you clarify ............ -- lonedove Top of thread Archive
Posted by: No Fear ®
10/06/2002, 03:24:14
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This forum is not the place to find the peace and joy you desire. You will find little support here.
Sincerely,
No Fear"Ask, and it shall be given unto you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you." (3 Nephi 14:7)
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NF is wrong, lonedove Re: God bless you, lonedove -- No Fear Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Jersey Girl ®
10/06/2002, 12:34:50
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No Fear is wrong. There are a good many people on this board who can and will support you kindly and compassionately from afar either publicly or privately via email should you feel the need. It is true that no one here can transform your difficult life, only you can do that and it sounds like you are!
However, I encourage you to avail yourself of the anonymity provided here, to use this forum as a means of growth and if anyone gives you a hard time you just tell me and I'll take care of them if you aren't able to.
I hope that you are able to recognize the courage within you that allowed you to make the post above. Be a survivor!
I assure you that Darr has not read your information else he would have quickly apologized to you. Do not let No Fear sour you on this forum. I have been here nearly two years and have time and time again, witnessed the very best in people here. Now, I'll sit on your shoulder while you keep posting!
I am a survivor too,
Vickip.s. vicki32377@aol.com anytime you need an ear.
Modified by Jersey Girl at Sun, Oct 06, 2002, 12:41:01
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Re: NF is wrong, lonedove Re: NF is wrong, lonedove -- Jersey Girl Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Darr ®
10/07/2002, 03:40:31
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As a matter of fact I had read her reply. And no, I will not apologize. She apparently does not understand her Bible. She still fails to understand that, as I already told her, there are three different conflicting sets of Ten Commandments in the Bible. She fails to understand that a literal interpretation of the Bible, particularly the worst, most inaccurate translation of it namely the KJV, defies logic and morality. Further, she is dead wrong about the beatings. I urge her to read Leviticus again, slowly this time.
If she is going to insist upon a literal translation of the KJV as the inerrant word of God, she must simply accept the fact that accordingly, beatings are prequisite. She cannot pick and chose the passages she wishes to get the warm fuzzies.
That is not to say that I condone spousal abuse. I abhor it. My own mother was the recipient of it by a husband who faithfully attended Mass every Sunday, Holy Day, and participated week long retreats several times during the year. However, the Bible is the least ethical, moral treatse that exists, and Lonedove either accepts the tenets contained therein, or she learns to recognize the tome for what it really is.
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My apologies, Darr Re: Re: NF is wrong, lonedove -- Darr Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Jersey Girl ®
10/07/2002, 06:38:27
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Vicki
Modified by Jersey Girl at Mon, Oct 07, 2002, 07:10:31
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Re: God bless you, lonedove Re: God bless you, lonedove -- No Fear Top of thread Archive
Posted by: lonedove ®
10/06/2002, 12:56:48
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I appreciate your kind words. I posted what I did, because of Darr's harsh words. The post made by Darr irked me somewhat.I wasn't trying to throw a pity party of what I have been through.
I have been moderator of many forums, such as Christian debate, etc. So I know scripture for the KJV and also the Book of mormon.
This forum has actually helped me RE: my leaving the LDS church. Many things about the LDS church has been misinterpreted. However, there are many things that I was told when I questioned about were lies, only to have found out the real truths. The post made by Darr irked me somewhat.
Darr: Which of the three different sets of ten commandments mentioned in the Bible do you recommend? Why not follow ALL the Levitical Laws? If you are male, why did you stop beating your wife, children and slaves, as you were commanded to do by scripture?
____________________________________________________________
His asking if I were male, blah blah...... Scripture did not
command man to beat ones wife, children, and slaves.Approx 12 yrs ago, the LDS church finally revoked vow of obedience which was obey their husbands before they did god as was wording in the
LDS endowment ceremony.
No fear, you were very young at this time and may not be aware of this. This is not the topic forum to type out all in the article.
I showed them the article and the one reading it, his mouth literrally dropped open and he then gave it to the other one to read.When the LDS missionaries came to my house, after 8 yrs of going through the illness of my mom and her passing from cancer, then my dad. They knew where I was as they had been to my dads house.
The LDS church is worth over $180 billion dollars, but yet they build these temples that costs millions of dollars and don't help
those in need.God Bless
Lone Dove
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Answer Darr's questions, please Re: Re: God bless you, lonedove -- lonedove Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Martin ®
10/07/2002, 14:43:12
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(1) Which ONE of the three inconsistent sets of the Ten Commandments to be found in any SINGLE Bible do you happen to believe is the correct (or best, if you will) set? How do you justify that particular choice? How do you explain the profound inconsistencies?
(2) Do you follow each and every Levitican Law? Here's a partial rundown of those crimes that the Bible reports God orders death for committing and those God otherwise finds abominable:
- for Hebrews to eat food with Egyptians is an abominationMust all of these biblical Laws the Bible claims are God's Laws be obeyed? If not, why not? Which ones must still be obeyed and which ones are optional?- eating seafood without fins or scales is an abomination
- eating things that creep along the earth is an abomination
- for a woman to wear an article of male-type clothing (such as wearing pants) is an abomination (Ever worn a pair of jeans, lonedove? For shame! According to Leviticus, you are an abomination!)
- a twice-divorced woman who chooses to remarry her first husband is an abomination
- a person who overeats shall be subjected to death by plague
- a boy who is born out of wedlock will burn in hell with all his descendants (as if it were the child's fault!)
- a child is to be killed if he/she curses their parent(s).
- all persons guilty of adultery are to be killed
- a person who takes the Lord's name in vain is to be killed
- married, heterosexual intercourse when a woman has her period is forbidden
- harvesting the corners of a field is forbidden
- eating the fruit from a young tree is forbidden
- cross-breeding livestock is forbidden
- sowing a field with mixed seed is forbidden
(3) (My own variant): Should children who curse their parents be killed, like the Bible orders? If not, why not?
- Martin
Modified by Martin at Mon, Oct 07, 2002, 14:44:11
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Re: Answer Darr's questions, please Re: Answer Darr's questions, please -- Martin Top of thread Archive
Posted by: lonedove ®
10/12/2002, 15:33:35
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Your post "posts are not intended to elicit pity. If you say so, very well. is very true. I do feel for Darr that he had to experience what he did. :-( in his childhood.
Anyway,like the one post, ppl can take certain scriptures and turn them around to FIT!! into their religions/beliefs. I call these people FUNDIES! Have known some atheists, agnostics, ppl who are into paganism whom have real true morals, help others, and put the so called true xtians to shame. I will try to my best to put my views on what you posted.
_________________________________________________________________
- for Hebrews to eat food with Egyptians is an abominationBack then there was fighting, etc. Who knows why.......Not I. Maybe the LDS were around then. As when I was going to the LDS church and mentioned going to a Baptist lady's church and eating, next thing I knew I had practically all of the people around me saying, we don't do that!!!!!!!!!
_______________________________
- eating seafood without fins or scales is an abominationI don't remember it saying fins. But scales..like catfish are scavengers, and eating dead stuff off the bottom of the ocean-lakes-ponds... ack! You would eat a dolphin? :-(
Oh well, I have tasted shark, isn't bad. Have eaten some catfish pond raised that wasn't too bad. I still can't really eat it as my grandmother was horned by a catfish and within 3 hrs had a dark blue streak going up her leg and she died of cancer 6 months later. Was quite a while ago, and when I was in med school, and research, if the fin of a catfish is cancerous, and horns a person, they can deveop cancer. Many Drs say NO! But I know!
______________________________________________________________
- eating things that creep along the earth is an abominationCreep, I take as crawl..sleek. Like snakes. Me eating snake. No thanks. But some say rattlesnake is good.
_______________________________________
- for a woman to wear an article of male-type clothing (such as wearing pants) is an abomination (Ever worn a pair of jeans, lonedove? For shame! According to Leviticus, you are an abomination!)I sure am an abdomination. I haven't wore a dress in 3 yrs.
Am a jeans and sweatshirt person. When I can attend church, go to a small non denominational one that I wear jeans.slacks. Usually jeans and sweatshirt..Matter of fact a gal from the LDS church came over with a dress she had gotten for me, and I told her sorry, I appreciate your offer so much, but the last time I was in a dress at the LDS church and from the MS I fell and my dress went up over my head. She said you can wobble. I said, I apologize again, but NO. When I was in Vegas at LDS church, gals even had shorts on. The LDS around here still say one cannot enter the church unless in a dress. Gal that is... Hmm wonder if a guy did..rofl
_______________________________________________________
- a twice-divorced woman who chooses to remarry her first husband is an abominationPffffffffffffffffft on this one also
___________________________________________________________
- a person who overeats shall be subjected to death by plagueGluttony is a sin. Back then also, some foods were unsafe to eat. Like Pork had trichinosis. Gee, all the overweight ppl today. And some don't have any food. I have been here many a time. Down to 104 now.
______________________________________________________
- a boy who is born out of wedlock will burn in hell with all his descendants (as if it were the child's fault!)Yeah sure.........sigh. This is ridiculous.
____________________________________________________________
- a child is to be killed if he/she curses their parent(s).This sounds like Muslim tradition. Just because a gal gives birth doesn't make her a real mother, nor a guy donating his ...
a dad........
______________________________________________________
- all persons guilty of adultery are to be killedAnother Muslim law
________________________________________________________
- a person who takes the Lord's name in vain is to be killedThe Lord or God? OMG........
__________________________________________________________- married, heterosexual intercourse when a woman has her period is forbidden
This one I agree with. Good grief. If a guy can't at least abstain from intercourse when his wife has her monthly, is really a sex fiend. IMHO
___________________________________________________________
- harvesting the corners of a field is forbiddenWho knows? Maybe ground erosion!
______________________________________________- eating the fruit from a young tree is forbidden
How young the tree. If it is the first crop, in some instances it can cause the tree not to bear fruit as well.
____________________________________________________- cross-breeding livestock is forbidden
Any educated person know what cross-breeding can do.
________________________________________________________________- sowing a field with mixed seed is forbidden
Plant corn with soybeans, etc etc. Some of the plants can overtake or kill out the others. Ask any farmer!
__________________________________________________________(3) (My own variant): Should children who curse their parents be killed, like the Bible orders? If not, why not?
If the childs parents are real jerks, drug users, alcoholics,
molest the kids, beat them,Some parents should be though IMHO! Just my feelings. Today, they usually put the kids in foster homes and try to rehabilitate the parent Sometimes works, sometimes it doesn't. Fell for the kids, as so many foster homes are almost as bad if not worse.
_______________________________________________________Saw that in Afghanistan, parts of Africa, etc they are again upholding the Muslim laws. They had one gal who was sentenced to stoning, after being buried up to her shoulders.
Another gal, whom was raped by 6 tribal elders was shunned. And 4 of them I think it was went free.
_________________________________PPL go too far in so many respects. Didn't mean to sound like a fundie Martin. After reading more on here, and seeing other responses, posts..many have feelings like I. Was emailing a few on here, finding out more about others who post and who is who and etc etc. Am burn't out from Christian debate, as I had come across too many so called xtian fundies who said I was going to burn in Hell..... Sigh some people
Take care Martin.
Modified by lonedove at Sat, Oct 12, 2002, 16:51:52
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Another fine Christian trait - obscurism Re: Re: Answer Darr's questions, please -- lonedove Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Darr ®
10/12/2002, 16:09:25
Author Profile Mail author
If you can excuse them, then the same can be said for the ten commandments (all three different sets of them). One need not obey them either. Either the bible is the inerrant word of a god or it is not. You don't get to pick and chose which of that god's orders you wish to obey.
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Re: Another fine Christian trait - obscurism Re: Another fine Christian trait - obscurism -- Darr Top of thread Archive
Posted by: lonedove ®
10/12/2002, 18:27:13
Author Profile Mail author
Came back to add this...did u see the original post by bjsikes?
I posted on there. If you did, and that is why you have been really posting to me, I can see why! Anyway is late.... err early. Yawn............ So will leave this as is. If I appeared to be like her, YIKES!
______________________________________________________Darr-You still didn't answer my question about the ten commandments. Secondly, you just excused your own behavior for breaking commandments that were given in the Bible.
____________________________________________________________
I answered what Martin asked. Darr, you follow all the commandments. I said MORALS! Morals are things such as lying, cheating, stealing, murder, adultery.Your post : That is not to say that I condone spousal abuse. I abhor it. My own mother was the recipient of it by a husband who faithfully attended Mass every Sunday, Holy Day, and participated week long retreats several times during the year. However, the Bible is the least ethical, moral treatse that exists, and Lonedove either accepts the tenets contained therein, or she learns to recognize the tome for what it really is.
_________________________________________________________________
First thing I thought of was the priesthood scandal. :-( Did ur moms husband suffer any of the things that priests did? And not tell of it. You know psychological effects of things can cause one to do things. I didn't intern in psychological counseling in med school for over 2 years and not learn anything.I didn't give an excuse for the things Darr. I posted what I felt about these things. They were NOT excuses. Reading your other posts, looks like you are trying to single ME out for some reason. Why I don't know. Like I said in an earlier post, I have been moderator for Christian Debate over 10 yrs. And all the things you have mentioned came up sooo many times. I am a Christian period! I believe in God and Jesus. This is the year 2002. The year and the way the world is says it right there!
AND I DID NOT GIVE EXCUSES. GRRRR so knock it off okay. I have always been one to apologize if I have hurt someones feelings, in wording something one way and another has taken it wrong.
______________________________________________________________Darr-If you can excuse them, then the same can be said for the ten commandments (all three different sets of them). One need not obey them either. Either the bible is the inerrant word of a god or it is not. You don't get to pick and chose which of that god's orders you wish to obey.
If you suddenly start losing your vision, or develop a neurological disease, do you think GOD will say you are damned if you can't follow all the OT commandments. And the 3 different versions of the commandments. What is your explanation of why/how the other 2 came about?
And I do NOT pick and chose the passages to get warm fuzzies.
I take ONE DAY AT A TIME! One day I can get around pretty good and another have to practically crawl to get around. Has God caused these afflictions upon me because he hates me?FYI: I have read Leviticus many times. The whole Bible many times. Many things I disagree with. The reason I posted the ten commandments in an earlier post was because I was asked which ten commandments I thought were the ones God gave Moses. I DO recognize the tome for what the OT and ten commandments are.
I am not a fundie! Nor pick and choose. I am cherokee Indian, and many of my ancestorial traditions have stuck with me. Plus I have Jewish ancestry, and much I respect and observe. One of my past friends was full Jewish and I spent much time with them, especially Hanakah, etc. And there was NO spousal abuse, etc etc in that family.
I hope that you have the tenacity to read and understand what I have written Darr! I respect your opinions, Your comment that you will not apologise, appears to me that you are unfeeling towards others. :-( Though others have said you are not this type of person. Nor your other posts have implied that you aren't either.
Take care Darr..I apologise if I have said anything to upset you.
LDove
Modified by lonedove at Sat, Oct 12, 2002, 21:00:02
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lonedove? Re: Re: Another fine Christian trait - obscurism -- lonedove Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Jersey Girl ®
10/13/2002, 08:58:29
Author Profile Mail author
Glad to see you returned! I have a comment and then a question. First the comment, why didn't you mention that Christ repealed the "old law"?
And now the question...what does your Cherokee tradition have to say about the beginning of the universe? Could you explain it in a post here (not meaning to throw the thread off course) or should I create a new thread for it?
Vicki
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Huh?? Re: Re: Answer Darr's questions, please -- lonedove Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Martin ®
10/14/2002, 17:00:29
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Re: Answer Darr's questions, please Re: Re: Answer Darr's questions, please -- lonedove Top of thread Archive
Posted by: nofaith ®
10/15/2002, 04:41:18
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-Dan
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Re: Answer Darr's questions, please Re: Re: Answer Darr's questions, please -- nofaith Top of thread Archive
Posted by: lonedove ®
10/17/2002, 12:59:54
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This should go under Indian Heritage, I know Darr was waiting for an answer.. As Vicki posted, many of the laws were repealed when Christ was on earth.
Since I started posting on the forum, trying to trace geneology, seeing family trees of many whom ancestors were pagans, atheists, JW, is interesting. Had another comment made to me by the lady who had come over..she belongs to LDS church.. Her comment, "I know you are cherokee Indian But.." Ingore all of that. Rather iritated me.
The first: A. To Take Care of Mother Earth and the other 3 colors of Man, however presents some questions for me, although I have my own opinions. Perhaps someone else would like to add to this.
Thanks!
The Sacred Instructions given by the Creator to Native people at the time of Creation were as follows:
A. To Take Care of Mother Earth and the other 3 colors of Man.
B. To Respect this Mother Earth and Creation.
C. To Honour All life, and to support that Honour.
D. To be Grate-ful from the heart for All life.
E It is through life that there is Survival.
F. Thank the Creator at All times for All life.
G. To Love and express that love.
H. To be Humble. Humility is the gift of wisdom and understanding.
I. Kindness. To be Kind with one-self and with others.
J. Sharing. The Sharing of feelings and personal concerns and commitments.
K. Honesty. To be Honest with one-self and with others.LDove
"It isn't the quantity of Cherokee blood in your veins that is important, but the quality of it . . . your pride in it."
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No Fear, I don't see Re: God bless you, lonedove -- No Fear Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Jersey Girl ®
10/06/2002, 13:35:30
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Vicki
Modified by Jersey Girl at Sun, Oct 06, 2002, 14:12:34
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Re: Pat, Martin , Craig and other believers Re: Pat, Martin , Craig and other believers -- Jersey Girl Top of thread Archive
Posted by: jesse ®
10/01/2002, 06:13:59
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I’m no scientist, but I do know some science. I don’t to depend on such as the ICR to speak at anything for me. I attended one of the best schools on the continent where I studied both Biology and Physical Anthropology – (in Evolution of humans). At the time of my studies I wasn’t a believer.Anyway, I must say that I pity your situation where you can be so easily influenced by what others have to say, such as the ICR speaker. Then you come back here where you spend a hundred fold time and listen to the authority here and then get influenced by them. You see what I mean. Your belief seem to be based on the influence others have on you. You spend more time here, so you are influenced by here most.
I can reason for myself. The bible as a whole has many questionable points as you claim. Many have been proven to be due to copyist errors and willful doctoring. Others, I just don’t have the answer. What I do know is the evidence of divine origin outranks anything else. So I’ll just have to wait for the clarifications.
In the mean time what seems like illustrations in the OT may be just that “seems like.” Opinion that is. But it does not say so. Parables by Jesus are just that, parables – illustrations. The name tells it. Not because we don’t understand something it becomes just an illustration.
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I CHALLENGE YOU, JESSE! Re: Re: Pat, Martin , Craig and other believers -- jesse Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Jersey Girl ®
10/01/2002, 09:46:17
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Just so we know where we stand, I've spent more time in church and college classrooms than I've spent here on 2Think. Believe it or not a life goes on between here and the world! Do you think that because you see my handle posted here that I LIVE inside your computer? And you totally mischaracterized my posts concerning the ICR! I have YET to see you offer a viable challenge to Craig, Martin, or others with regards to evolution, the beginnings of the Universe and most anything else. Unless you consider petty remarks challenging.
I'm very glad to hear you went to one of the best colleges on the continent. There are a few here who TEACH at them!
Here's your shining moment, jesse! INFLUENCE ME! I challenge you to publicly go through Genesis specifically the Creation account and Flood Story and show me your scientific proof that it happened! Pin it up against scientific proof, jesse. And SWAY ME! Again, I have seen no viable argument from you in opposition to the boatloads of information given here by the science minds on this board. NOW'S YOUR BIG CHANCE! GO FOR IT!
Vicki
Modified by Jersey Girl at Tue, Oct 01, 2002, 11:22:22
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Re: I CHALLENGE YOU, JESSE! Re: I CHALLENGE YOU, JESSE! -- Jersey Girl Top of thread Archive
Posted by: jesse ®
10/03/2002, 05:58:18
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How do I so conclude?Well, there you are, asking for scientific proof of Creation. This is illogical. If creation was performed by God, a supernatural sovereign , then ……………………. It’s a request that destroys itself. If anyone does not believe in Creation and/or God then he should absolutely never ask for scientific proof of it (them).
The only concept that describes a God is a supernatural one.I made this point before: God cannot be natural. It would be a contradiction. If God were natural, it would mean that he could be destroyed by some scientific means. Then he would obviously not be a God. Do you follow the deduction.
So it makes much more sense for someone to claim non-belief in a God and leave it at that, than to ask for scientific proof of one.
The people you mention are scientists. Having followed them for a while, it’s obvious that they are incapable of reasoning outside of science. Only natural evidence matters to them. So they have no room for the supernatural because it cannot be reasoned in a “natural science” manner. Their imagination does not allow them room for what they may be incapable of reasoning. There in lies their weakness. They can’t reason it so it cannot be. Anyone with such a stand is saying that human kind has reached his limits of reasoning power. (in other words, evolutionist are saying that the brain has reached it maximum capabilities) Because if man has not reached such a limit then provision has to made for the fact that there are things we are not yet capable of reasoning.
Who knows what such things are!
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Where do I begin? Re: Re: I CHALLENGE YOU, JESSE! -- jesse Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Jersey Girl ®
10/03/2002, 06:45:38
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It's hard to know where to begin here. Let me back pedal a moment and then move foward. I'll make a list.
1. Were you on Forum 1? No, you were on Forum 2.
2. Were you here when Karyn posted more regularly than I?
I started posting here October 2000. I infact, held
and maintained the believers perspective here for
several months, most often alone, before Karyn entered
the forum.3. The people I mentioned are not all scientists. Martin
(to the best of my knowledge) is not a scientist. He
certainly is gifted, knowledgeable and passionate
in matters of science.4. If you are aware of my past discussions regarding
Genesis/Creation/The Flood you'd know the following:A. Barbarian is a believer. I've just encountered him.
B. Craig has never ruled out the possibility of God.
C. Martin's position on the "genesis" of the universe
(unless it's changed) is that there is no "need"
for God. He does not rule out the possiblity of
God.(If I have mistated your position gentlemen, please
correct me)5. Your statements here about Martin, Craig and Barbarian
(for those are who I mentioned) seem to point toward
unethical behavior. I have found them to be most
ethical in transmitting information regarding science.
6. If you think that using science to "test" the
scriptures is wrong then you automatically discount
the validity of archaeology not to mention the entire
Creationist movement. Using science to prove the
scriptures is exactly what creationists attempt to do
and fail (so far as I can see) doing. There are glaring
inconsistencies.7. I do not rule out the possiblity of God as the
supernatural being/catalyst of the genesis of the
universe. If you have been reading my posts you'd
know that quite the contrary is true. I have seen
strong evidence that the Genesis account is faulty.
Should I come across evidence that demonstrates
otherwise, I would be very glad for that. So far, I
have not. The scientific validity or non-validity
of the Genesis account has nothing to do with
my belief in God.8. I am not sure what right you feel you have, as a
believer, to judge my spiritual life, the extent
of my belief or the sturdiness of my walk. If you
yourself are a believer, you would know it's not
your call.Vicki
Modified by Jersey Girl at Thu, Oct 03, 2002, 06:49:39
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Re: Where do I begin? Re: Where do I begin? -- Jersey Girl Top of thread Archive
Posted by: jesse ®
10/04/2002, 05:27:12
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Re: I CHALLENGE YOU, JESSE! Re: Re: I CHALLENGE YOU, JESSE! -- jesse Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Craig C. ®
10/03/2002, 10:56:21
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You say, Well, there you are, asking for scientific proof of Creation. This is illogical. If creation was performed by God, a supernatural sovereign , then ……………………. It’s a request that destroys itself. If anyone does not believe in Creation and/or God then he should absolutely never ask for scientific proof of it (them).
Why has this Supernatural God of yours created a natural world designed to trick scientists? Why is your God a Deceiver? Why does your God oppose reason?
Having followed them for a while, it’s obvious that they [Martin, Pat, Craig] are incapable of reasoning outside of science.
All people, including even Martin, Pat, and myself, use reason in many aspects of our lives - to navigate personal relationships, to play musical instruments, to play sports, to decide what to wear, what to eat, how to behave. Unlike you, we also apply reasoning to natural history.
I imagine that you are a rational person in most aspects of your life, but you seem incapable of applying reason to your understanding of natural history. You have a blind spot.
evolutionist are saying that the brain has reached it maximum capabilities
You do not understand what evolutionists are saying Jessie. I can certainly imagine that the human brain could continue to evolve - depending on how people live and die in the future.
Because if man has not reached such a limit then provision has to made for the fact that there are things we are not yet capable of reasoning.
Improved human reasoning will not alter the basic story of evolution that is so clearly written in fossils and genes. It is a message that is loud and clear - at least for those who have not closed their eyes and ears.
Craig
Modified by Craig C. at Thu, Oct 03, 2002, 11:04:16
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I strongly echo Craig's reply Re: Re: I CHALLENGE YOU, JESSE! -- Craig C. Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Martin ®
10/03/2002, 16:58:29
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I have but an additional comment to make. You had written: "Because if man has not reached such a limit then provision has to made for the fact that there are things we are not yet capable of reasoning."
Your own reasoning is clearly in need of evolution, Jesse. As I pointed out to TLC a few month's back when he raised a very similar argument, it is fundamentally irrational and illogical. The limits of a single human mind are simply not indicative of, or have any special relevance to, the limits of a collection of human minds working together across both time and geography. Science is a collective, self-correcting enterprise and any realistic potential biological evolution of the human brain can do little or nothing significant to improve or advance that. The need and value of an increased capacity for rational thought in individuals is utterly insignificant compared to the overwhelming need for more people to start using those capacities they already possess wisely and intelligently, free from the evil destructiveness that is so recklessly fed by harmful religious and socio-political ideologies.
- Martin
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Re: I CHALLENGE YOU, JESSE! Re: Re: I CHALLENGE YOU, JESSE! -- Craig C. Top of thread Archive
Posted by: jesse ®
10/04/2002, 05:34:40
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"I am not talking about that. I'm talking about these issues we discuss here: creation, evolution, Etc.
(I avoid explaning every thing in precise detail, qualifying everything I say -- as I figure the smart people here dont need that)
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Re: I CHALLENGE YOU, JESSE! Re: Re: I CHALLENGE YOU, JESSE! -- jesse Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Craig C. ®
10/04/2002, 07:02:36
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Modified by Craig C. at Fri, Oct 04, 2002, 07:03:18
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Such low grade logic, I'll leave at that. Re: Re: I CHALLENGE YOU, JESSE! -- Craig C. Top of thread Archive
Posted by: jesse ®
10/09/2002, 05:42:26
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what a sad cop out Re: Such low grade logic, I'll leave at that. -- jesse Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Craig C. ®
10/09/2002, 11:57:29
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Jesse is a craven, cowardly evader Re: what a sad cop out -- Craig C. Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Martin ®
10/09/2002, 19:32:49
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Re: Pat, Martin , Craig and other believers Re: Re: Pat, Martin , Craig and other believers -- jesse Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Craig C. ®
10/01/2002, 11:00:02
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Assuming that you are telling the truth about having sat through these classes, it is abundantly clear that you learned nothing at all from the experience. Your posts on this board provide evidence of that. On several occasions, you have made assertions that were so ill-informed or misinformed that they would surely earn you an "F" in any reputable biology class.
Your criticism of Vicki is entirely unwarranted. Vicki thinks for herself and comes up with her own opinions. The fact that she can change her opinions after weighing evidence is a credit to her, not a discredit as you seem to think. If your beliefs are superior, why don't you help her by providing her with evidence that supports your beliefs?
Vicki remains open to possibilities. She wants to learn. From what I have read of your posts, you do not. You already know the truth. Now that is what's truly sad.
Craig
Modified by Craig C. at Tue, Oct 01, 2002, 11:00:39
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In my own defense Re: Re: Pat, Martin , Craig and other believers -- Craig C. Top of thread Archive
