| Reflections of an Apostate Mormon |  | ||
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Posted by: Lance ® 09/19/2002, 01:41:39 Author Profile Mail author |
I wrote this for some friends of mine, but decided to also post it here: Growing up in the Mormon church, I never had to think. My priesthood leaders in the Mormon hierarchy took care of that for me. And so I didn't think; I followed blindly. I was the perfect Mormon in my later teens. Now in early childhood I almost instinctively disliked religion. I was baptized by my father into the Mormon religion at the age of eight, but at that age I was hardly in a position to refuse the baptism, much less formulate a coherent argument as to why I didn't want to be baptized in the first place. But I disliked church and would often hide in the woods (literally) on Sunday mornings in order to avoid going. Something changed in my late teens, and one of my older brothers had a lot to do with it. He decided to become a Mormon missionary. He was sent to Scotland. Now, I idolized my older brother and wanted to model myself after him. So I began doing everything he did. I read the Book of Mormon every day. I read books written by church leaders. I listened to the Mormon Tabernacle Choir. I paid tithing (ten percent), and never missed church. Before long I became quite the youth leader. I spoke at local church conferences before very large numbers of people. I even traveled locally by request in order to speak at other congregations. I'd made quite a name for myself as a public speaker. Naturally, I became a missionary when I turned 19. I was shipped off to Venezuela. At the time, I didn't even know where Venezuela was! I'm not kidding. Before writing about my two year stint as a Mormon missionary, I'd like to relate one key event that really shook me and gave me pause to reflect. Although at the time I didn't pause or reflect nearly long enough, I see this as laying the groundwork for later being able to question church authority and begin drawing my own conclusions about things. What happened is that I was visiting an older friend who was quite well versed in Mormon doctrine and history, and this friend decided that I was devout and intelligent enough to have some more obscure ideas 'revealed' to me. So he pulled out some old Mormon books and read passages to me. Things about spirits in the afterlife needing to eat, thus there are spirit plants in the spirit world for all those hungry spirits to eat. Things about how if I were good enough, I'd make it to the highest level of heaven and become a god, where I could have an almost limitless harem of women of my choosing, with whom to copulate and have spirit children so that I could use them to populate worlds of my own creation. Anyway, a lot of weird things. Rather than strengthen my faith, this man ended up shaking it profoundly. I left early and went home thoroughly disturbed. I just couldn't accept the things he'd told me. How did I deal with this little crisis? I filed the things he'd read to me away; I refused to look at them. I simply wouldn't let anything get in the way of my faith. So off I went to Venezuela, after a two-month stint at the Missionary Training Center in Provo, Utah. Barely able to speak Spanish yet, I arrived in this South American country, had lunch with the mission president and his wife, and was put on a bus destined for some remote, backwater town. And thus the adventure began. For the first year as a missionary, I was devout and dedicated. I worked when I was supposed to. I worked more than I was supposed to. I prayed constantly, I read the Book of Mormon (for a grand total of nearly twenty times), and I read and reread the Bible and other books of scripture which the Mormons recognize. I didn't listen to anything other than the Mormon Tabernacle Choir--literally. I did not call home, I didn't write my girlfriend or any friends, because I was told that these things would 'distract' me from my sacred duties. And I was successful, if you measure success the way the Mormon church does (in terms of numbers). I baptized over 160 people. After about a year, though, I began having serious doubts about what I was doing. In part, these doubts were almost certainly brought on by the immense amount of stress and pressure I was under. I'd been 'called' to serve as a district leader, overseeing a group of local missionaries. If they didn't baptize, basically I was the one they'd turn up the heat on. And when we did baptize, they'd make us set new and higher 'goals' the next month. It was never possible to meet our goals in this manner, and we were constantly told that we had to work harder or that we weren't worthy. The implication was that we were somehow sinning and falling short, and this was responsible for our not baptizing the entire South American continent. The pressure was getting to me, and it manifested itself first in the form of physical illness. I developed a case of intestinal and stomach parasites from the local water, and was seriously ill for months. I was vomiting constantly, I was so thin I looked like a skeleton with some skin drawn over it. I was experiencing the most excruciating stomach pains. When I turned to the church for help, they said it was 'stress' and a manifestation that I wasn't working hard enough, and that it was just possible that God might be punishing me for some imaginary sins. So I worked even harder, and I got even more ill. I finally saw a doctor, who discovered the parasites. I needed medical care. The church decided that my family should pay the bill. I began to feel better from the parasites, but by this time my mission was nearly over and I had other problems as well. I was experiencing constant nosebleeds, and was facing a severe bout of depression (which at the time I had no idea it was; I had no clue that depression existed as a serious disorder). I was also questioning my faith quite seriously at this time. I was angry and disillusioned with the church. I'd volunteered to do this mission, using the savings I'd accumulated throughout high school to support myself. When I became ill, the church brushed my illness off, implied that it was my fault, and when the illness was confirmed, they shrugged the cost of dealing with it off onto my family. This from a church which has holdings rivaling the Catholic, thanks to the blindly given tithes of their millions of members (and their substantial business investments). But I was also having doubts for other reasons. For one thing, I noticed that most of the people we baptized never came back to church after their baptism. This was a concern to me, but the church didn't seem to care. All they seemed to want was to get the people dunked in the water so they could record yet another baptism and talk about how fast the church was growing around the world. The welfare, eternal or otherwise, of the people we baptized was of no importance. I also wondered just what I was doing, trying to convince other people that their faith was not as good as my faith. I baptized primarily Catholics, but people of many other faiths as well. Many of these people seemed not at all convinced that there was anything wrong with their original faith in comparison to mine, and in fact many of them simply returned to their original churches after receiving our baptism and had nothing more to do with us. There were many reasons for this I think, including the fact that our tactics were high pressure, we were usually North American and thus something of a novelty, and the people in that region just generally have a non-confrontational attitude (they don't want to say 'no'). What made my faith so special? Others didn't seem to see anything so great about it. What was so great about it? I began to question practices in the mission. People were getting baptized who shouldn't have been. At one point, a contest was held in our district to see which missionary pair (Mormon missionaries always travel in pairs) could garner the most baptisms in a month. I came in second, at 67. Some other pair came in with 69 that month. But the tactics used to gain these baptisms were deplorable. While I didn't indulge in some of the worse behaviors, I am guilty of seeking out children, because they're the easiest to convince. They think we're cool, the idea of getting baptized will be fun, and they're proud of their new North American friends. So we baptized them in droves. Missionaries told kids that they'd get to 'go swimming' in our 'pool' if they'd come to church next Sunday (something I found appalling when I found out about it, and a practice I never indulged in myself). These kids didn't even know what they were doing! And we didn't care. Nor did the church care. Concerned, I brought this matter up with the mission president, who told me essentially that while he didn't condone the practice, I shouldn't worry myself about it and I should just let things play out. I found this utterly unacceptable. My faith was further eroded. I noticed inconsistencies in policies. For example, a little over halfway through my mission, our previous mission president went home, released from his duties, and was replaced by a new president. This man went on to completely change some of the mission rules and policies, all the while telling us not to question, that one should obey one's church leaders as the very voice of the Lord. And yet, why the changes? If he was acting under the inspiration of God, was he trying to suggest that God just suddenly and conveniently changed his mind about basic policies and ideas coincidentally right after we changed mission presidents? It seemed far more likely to me that this man wasn't inspired at all, but rather was simply acting on his own thoughts, doing what sounded good to him personally. I became highly skeptical of everything from the church. I began to openly question, and I found myself unable to teach any longer. I was questioning what I was teaching. How could I present it to others as absolute truth? I developed a bit of a reputation, in those last few months, of being an outspoken troublemaker. Word began to circulate that I was a 'secret sinner' who was on the road to apostasy. And they were right, about the road to apostasy part. I became somewhat antagonistic, I will admit. I started teasing other missionaries and challenging basic doctrines in front of them. I stopped calling them all by the generic title of 'Elder' as mission policy demanded, instead referring to them by their first names. I was pissing people off. One day when I raised a question at a meeting about some mission policies, one of the missionaries present (an assistant to the president, the highest rung of the mission ladder and of which there are only ever two at a time in the entire mission), openly pointed at me and called me a sinner. He said that my bout with parasites was my fault, that I'd brought it on myself because of my sinfulness, and that I was no better than the men in the mob who'd murdered Mormon founder Joseph Smith. I asked him what was wrong with asking legitimate questions openly. He didn't answer. That missionary never spoke another word to me again. If I were to run into him on the street tomorrow, he'd probably clutch his secret, ritualistic Mormon underwear and run past me. My outspoken behavior isolated me, but my overall baptisms increased! I was baptizing more on average than I had been before I started questioning and stopped adhering rigidly to teaching rules. And this really annoyed other missionaries. The stage was more than set for further trouble. In truth, I again instigated that trouble. I wrote a letter to the mission president, criticizing mission policies, asking pointed questions about practices and points of doctrine, and declaring my own point of view and opinions on the matters. Within days, a missionary called, telling me to get on the next bus to the city of Caracas. The mission president wanted to see me, and he wanted to see me yesterday. My missionary companion, Elder U-------, liked me and was worried. When we arrived at the mission home, he was asked to wait outside. I was to see the president alone. As I entered the president's office, I looked back and could see worry on U--------'s face. He thought I was in some serious trouble. I sat down across from the mission president and he asked how I was. I told him I was fine and asked how he was, but he didn't answer. Instead, he pulled out my letter, held it up, and asked "What is this?" I said "It's the letter I wrote you a few days ago." He went on a long rant about how he was the unquestioned and absolute authority in that mission, and the representative of Jesus Christ before me. He said he was not to be questioned. He said he was hurt, and at times I did perceive an apparently genuine, confused look of pain in his eyes. He told me that there were certain things that as a missionary I just had to accept without doubt, and that if I couldn't squash those doubts than I had no business being in the Lord's service. He asked me how I felt about that. In truth, I was rather frightened by his rant and was afraid to speak. So I just sort of shrugged. Wrong answer. He apparently interpreted this as a sign that I was in open rebellion and did not care. He flew into a sort of rage, and threatened to send me home. He said "Is that what you want, to be sent home just weeks before your full two years is supposed to end?" And in truth I was only a few weeks away from concluding my service. I told him no. This was apparently the right answer. He seemed to want to punish me for my questioning by making me suffer some event I didn't want. He turned from me in contempt and made a phone call. While he was waiting for the other party to pick up, he gave me a sadistic little grin and said "I'm calling your mother." Well, my heart practically leapt right out of my throat at that point. In fact, it almost shot through the top of my head and plastered itself against the ceiling. I'd been badmouthed a lot lately, and all of it had been okay. But I did not want to be maligned to my mother, from the president of the mission itself. Yet I just sat there. In truth, what could I have really done? I'm certain that mission president was enjoying the moment. My Mom answered and he told her that everything was fine, but that they were sending me home early for 'health reasons'. He then hung up the phone, turned to me and told me to go back to my apartment, pack my things, and return to the mission home. He'd have me on the next plane out. So I was sent home just weeks before completing my full two years. I was not sent home in disgrace and my mission is on record as having been served 'honorably'. But I fail to see much honorable about the whole sordid affair. I've talked a lot in the past about the long road leading to atheism from that point (note: to the friends I originally wrote this for). But I have to thank that mission president, along with all his small-minded little missionary drones. Without their heavy-handed hypocrisy, I might never have awoken from the blind slumber of dogmatic, controlling religious faith. So thank you, mission president. From the bottom of my heart. Thank you for releasing me from the bonds of my religion by making those bonds so apparent. Modified by Lance at Thu, Sep 19, 2002, 01:42:44 |
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Replies to this message
Re: Reflections of an Apostate Mormon Re: Reflections of an Apostate Mormon -- Lance Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Mat ®
09/19/2002, 09:00:22
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Thanks for sharing your story. It must have been a very difficult process for you to go through.
I have one word of advice from a relatively new atheist. And to tell you the truth, I am not so sure that it is really that good advice. I trust other's will let me know if it's not.
Don't make your decision to be an atheist based upon feelings or emotions from how you were treated or what you perceived of the LDS church doctrine. Becoming an atheist based on emotions is no better than becoming a theist based on emotions. Take time to research the concept of God and put it to a logical test. And whatever you do, be HONEST with yourself. That's the most difficult part. If you base this decision based on emotion, I believe you are more likely to return to it, or something similar, based on emotion.
I'm not saying that you based your decision on emotion, but your story was emotional and it was my perception that it could be emotionally based.
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Re:hmmmm Re: Re: Reflections of an Apostate Mormon -- Mat Top of thread Archive
Posted by: rdl ®
09/19/2002, 09:12:51
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Don't make your decision to be an atheist based upon feelings or emotions from how you were treated or what you perceived of the LDS church doctrine. Becoming an atheist based on emotions is no better than becoming a theist based on emotions. Take time to research the concept of God and put it to a logical test. And whatever you do, be HONEST with yourself. That's the most difficult part. If you base this decision based on emotion, I believe you are more likely to return to it, or something similar, based on emotion.
...what he said.I'm sorry you had to go through so much difficulty to reach the place that you are now. I think you'll ultimately find it a better place though.
best wishes to you.
rdl
ps: I notice your profile states you're in Boston. Student? Resident? Patriots fan? ;-)
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Re: Re:hmmmm Re: Re:hmmmm -- rdl Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Lance ®
09/19/2002, 11:07:00
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It took many years of questioning, studying and searching after my mission before I came around to learning about atheism. I resisted the idea at first until I realized that I pretty much already had become an atheist and just didn't realize it, and that it was the only thing that made any sense to me at all. So don't worry, my atheism has a strong basis in investigation and inquiry, and critical thought.
I'm a recent transplant to Boston. Not a student, not officially a resident yet. I don't really follow the Patriots. :)
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Re: Re:hmmmm Re: Re: Re:hmmmm -- Lance Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Mat ®
09/19/2002, 11:25:03
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I was a baptist when I began studying the LDS church. After determining that their doctrine was "false", I started my "attack" on mormonism. Not long after that, I took up the challenge to attack my own beliefs with the same vigor that I did the LDS beliefs. My beliefs failed as well.
I thought of myself as being an "agnostic" until I read Smith's book "Atheism-The Case Against God". It was then I realized that, in the most broad sense of the word, I am an atheist.
I don't know that atheism brings anyone more happiness than theism, but I know that it does open the eyes to many things I could not see before.
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Mat's another hero! Re: Re: Re:hmmmm -- Mat Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Martin ®
09/28/2002, 18:31:46
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As for atheism bringing happiness, I'm sure you would agree that for one who honors truth, happiness is simply not the point. But apparently much like yourself, what I contend is perhaps the greatest benefit of critical freethought is the profound sublimity of experience it enables! For just one example, one can more easily see the alluring beauty of the God concept and the lovely language and poetry of various scriptural writings of various different sects and religions. And this clarity of vision also allows one to dispassionately see the danger and the intellectual and moral squalor of such ideas as well.
Hat's off, my friend!
- Martin
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Re: Patriots Re: Re: Re:hmmmm -- Lance Top of thread Archive
Posted by: rdl ®
09/19/2002, 19:22:49
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Welcome to the area.
(both the city and the 2-think board...they're both rather interesting places)rdl
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Thank you for sharing Re: Reflections of an Apostate Mormon -- Lance Top of thread Archive
Posted by: RC ®
09/19/2002, 21:03:23
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As an interesting side note, I actually wrote a book about Mormon missions that was supposed to encourage missionaries and future missionaries. It was never published; in part, I think, because the perspective was pretty liberal. As I look back on my experience in writing that book, I realize now that it was cathartic. I had to get all of my thoughts and feelings out on paper to fully understand what a mission and the Mormon church are like. Once I did that, I felt like I could openly face some of the questions that had bothered me for so long.
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Re: Thank you for sharing Re: Thank you for sharing -- RC Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Lance ®
09/20/2002, 06:04:25
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Re: Thank you for sharing Re: Re: Thank you for sharing -- Lance Top of thread Archive
Posted by: RC ®
09/21/2002, 04:05:54
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There are plenty of publishers... Re: Re: Thank you for sharing -- Lance Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Martin ®
09/28/2002, 18:45:02
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Now, the church might excommunicate you, but were I you, I would wear that as a badge of honor, as the host and founder of this site rightfully does!
As an aside, I can't help finding it incredibly sad that so many ex-Mormons are so hesitant or even fearful of earning their family's disapproval or scorn for their honest religious outlooks. To me, this very common thread running through so very many of ex-Mormon's lives gives the LIE to all the LDS doubletalk about family values and love! If Mormons love their families so much, why should religious views engender such great apprehension, fear, and hard feelings?
My entire (Roman Catholic) family knows I'm an atheist and agnostic (and gay) but their love and acceptance never once waivered for an instant!! What can be more genuinely loving than that?
- Martin
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Let's keep the LDS evil in perspective Re: There are plenty of publishers... -- Martin Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Cal ®
09/29/2002, 15:08:13
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My entire (Roman Catholic) family knows I'm an atheist and agnostic (and gay) but their love and acceptance never once waivered for an instant!! What can be more genuinely loving than that?
Please keep in mind that I'm a severe critic of the Mormon church myself. But I really dislike your arguments against it here.
1. You offer an anecdote about how your own Catholic family came to accept your atheo-agnosticism and homosexuality, for God's sake. How credible can that be as a way to contrast the LDS from Catholics? There are Mormon families that can handle people like you--and me. They adjust after sometimes terrible difficulties. Still, the Catholic church on these two issues has been almost completely a thorn in the side to anyone arguing for toleration and open-mindedness, especially if you consider the Catholic church in terms of its long history, which is how you rightly think Mormons should consider their own church.
[As an aside, I spend my daily life amongst a number of Catholics--my school was founded by a Catholic and is populated largely by Catholics--and I've learned to be very cautious on my views about gays. A gay teacher who even abjectly renounced his orientation would have a horrible time around here. A gay atheo-agnostic would have a worse time. I myself am manifestly heterosexual, so the one thing I'm most careful about is whether and to whom to indicate my own disbelief. That's a fact I'll divulge only to those whom I trust. And there isn't a Mormon to be found in the vicinity.]
2. I can't help finding it incredibly sad that so many ex-Mormons are so hesitant or even fearful of earning their family's disapproval or scorn for their honest religious outlooks.
I find this fact incredibly sad too. But this doesn't mean that Mormons and their apostate children can't hash out their differences as well, at least, as Catholics can. I'm very close to my true believing Mormon family and even to by TBM in-laws. I've learned to love them deeply, in fact, and vice-versa. Family values have somehow worked for my relatives in spite of their Mormonism.
[Another aside: I spent some time today with a wonderful Catholic family--the father's an accomplished logician, a professor of philosophy and theology at a Catholic university--and I'm certain that if any of their children become even Protestants, let alone gay atheists, there'd be a huge family row, one that could dwarf the conflict that engulfed my own family when I left the church. I myself try to exude nothing of my non-belief to them. I wonder what it'd be like if I were gay too, given that the mother's a Catholic who's also a "family values" activist who's probably a known enemy to national gay rights activists given her stands.]
3. So when you offer this: If Mormons love their families so much, why should religious views engender such great apprehension, fear, and hard feelings?, offering your Catholic family's response in contrast, I'm just dumbstruck. I don't know why you want to single out Mormons. I hate this failing in the Mormon church as much as anyone I know. I hate that this apprehension takes hold of Catholics too, and it does, especially if they take their own tradition seriously. In the long run, at any rate, I'm more worried about Catholicism, with it deeper pockets and longerstanding authoritarian roots, than I am about Mormonism. Its backlash against modernism is likely to be more important, and rooted more deeply in its own traditions, than Mormonism.
In any case, I haven't for the life of me thought of how to distinguish Catholicism from Mormonism on how one should treat gay agnosto-atheists with full respect. Are you expecting the Catholic church to give up its magisterium on the issues of atheism and homosexuality? I'd wager that the Mormons have a better--if dim--chance for innovations, at least, in how to think about non-believers and gays.
And one thing to which both a contemporary American Catholic and Mormon commonly appeal is the modern notion of freedom of conscience, universal human rights, and so forth. But then a Mormon's appealing to something at least reflected in Mormon scripture itself, which fortunately arose after the War of Independence, while these ideals have just been a hard lesson for the Catholic tradition, which has been authoritarian to the core for centuries, and has had to learn the idea of freedom from external sources, slowly incorporating the lessons.
And haven't you wondered why folk like Gunnar, Alf, Craig, fer-de-lance, and others, dislike anything that seems to go overboard or caricatured in criticizing the Mormon church? Why an informed exmo is so often likely to defend the Mormon church from its critics? One reason is that we've been surrounded by smart and good folk who also happen to be Mormon, and that we've seen goodness and "family values"--and even religious ideas of worth--at work in Mormon life, including our family lives. At minimum we've learned that it isn't necessarily a disaster to be a Mormon, anymore so than it is be a Catholic.
Modified by Cal at Sun, Sep 29, 2002, 18:09:04
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WHOAH!! Re: Let's keep the LDS evil in perspective -- Cal Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Martin ®
09/29/2002, 20:20:31
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I clearly touched a raw nerve. Why the unwarranted and over-sensitive outrage, Cal? What powerful emotional button did my honest opinions push in you?
And why do you suddenly imagine that I tend toward understatement in my posts? Have you never noticed that I tend instead to put things rather strongly, sometimes too strongly? How can this be unfamiliar to you?
Looking at your unmistakably angry, inappropriate, and highly exaggerated response, you seem very much to be raging against a caricature of my actual words. Why so hyper-reactive to my honest personal opinion, informed by my own personal experiences? Why do you feel compelled to so angrily dispute the fact that I know personally, and have also encountered here, a number of ex-Mormons who are, in my honest opinion, "hesitant" or "even fearful" of "earning their family's disapproval" or "scorn" for "their honest religious outlook"? On what grounds can you possibly deny that this is my honest opinion or that it is false, unwarranted, or overstated?
Why must you see my genuine, heartfelt opinion as representing a pissing contest between Catholics and Mormons when only a highly distorted mischaracterization of my words could possibly lead to such a view? On what rational grounds can you argue -- as you clearly and I must say quite speciously did -- that I claimed that my family's love and acceptance represented a difference between Catholics and Mormons, let alone ALL Catholics and ALL Mormons? Outrageous!
Did it never occur to you that my words were simply saying that the common but overbearingly arrogant and even insulting LDS insinuation that they are MORE loving of their families than others is what I am criticizing??
And what magically convinced you that Lance knew a priori that my family was not Mormon? What allowed you to magically know that Lance could not possibly think -- in the absence of my innocuous but clarifying parenthetical remark -- that my family was not Mormon, leading to otherwise easily avoided ambiguity and confusion? Did you even notice that I put the words "Roman Catholic" in a parenthetical remark? Do you understand what that meant?
But now you've got me riled up in turn! And since it's a pissing contest between religions that you seem to want, let me tell you something: I know dozens of gay Catholics/ex-Catholics and dozens of ex-Catholic anosto-atheists and NONE of them have ever reported to me or to anyone I know a serious problem being accepted and loved by their families. However, every single gay Mormon I have ever known personally has had enormous problems being loved and accepted by their families! Also, every single gay Mormon I have ever known personally has suffered from significant emotional problems resulting from their excessively vehement and hateful anti-gay (not to mention anti-sex) religious upbringing. And still more important than that, I have seen it reported several times that gay Mormon men disproportionately suffer from clinical depression and suicidal ideation, and that a significantly disproportionate number of them actually go on to commit suicide! AND ONE OF MY BEST MORMON FRIENDS COMMITTED SUICIDE AFTER BEING THROWN OUT INTO THE STREET BY HIS "LOVING" LDS FAMILY FOR BEING GAY, EVEN AFTER UNDERGOING MONSTROUS "GAY REPARATIVE THERAPY" ORDERED BY HIS LDS STAKE LEADERS ON PAIN OF EXCOMMUNICATION AND OTHER THEOLOGICAL BULLYING AND THREATS!!!!
Hell, I've read that the EXTREME religious hostility of the LDS Church towards even mere masturbation causes a disproportionate number of even straight young Mormon men to commit suicide!
Don't you DARE try to tell me that being raised in the LDS Church is typically less or even equally damaging to psychological health than being raised in other mainstream churches, Catholic or otherwise! Not over the body of my dead friend!
Your outrageous and wildly unwarranted conclusion-jumping and wholly misdirected rage are simply beyond the pale, Cal.
- Martin
Modified by Martin at Sun, Sep 29, 2002, 20:26:45
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Re: WHOAH!! Re: WHOAH!! -- Martin Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Craig C. ®
09/30/2002, 00:33:30
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When I read your descriptions of Catholicism, I see considerable sympathy. When I read your descriptions of Mormonism, I see none at all. I suspect it is this imbalance that bothers Cal. For those of us who come from a Mormon background, failure to acknowledge the good in Mormonism feels like a distortion, a half-truth.
It's obvious that Mormon arrogance regarding family values sticks in your craw. I don't like it either. On the other hand, there really are positive aspects of communal care within Mormonism, including some laudable examples of personal sacrifice for the benefit of others.
Clearly, you had a horrible and inexcusable experience with a dear friend. But for every such instance, there is a counter example. I know of at least one Mormon family that treats their homosexual son and his partner with great respect and love. We frequently receive a news letter from them in which the achievements of their son and his partner are proudly highlighted. I am sure there are many more such examples. My TBM wife believes that attitudes are gradually changing in this regard. I sincerely hope so.
I think it is very difficult to understand a culture from the outside looking in. That is why I am more than willing to take your descriptions of Catholicism at face value. I will readily admit that my opinion of Catholicism has significanly improved after reading some of your posts.
Having said that, I see no merit in contrasting these two religions and mythologies and trying to decide which is better. Both have flaws; both have good points.
Craig
Modified by Craig C. at Mon, Sep 30, 2002, 02:03:23
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Explication Re: Re: WHOAH!! -- Craig C. Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Martin ®
10/03/2002, 19:52:02
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There is much truth in what you say. I would be lying were I to deny it.
But like Cal, you seem to have over-interpreted and mis-interpreted my single parenthetical clarification of my family's non-Mormon status into some kind of assertion of Catholic superiority!
Craig, I have never doubted that the majority of Mormons are wonderful, loving people. In fact, I have said exactly that several times here over the years! It is really necessary that I include a disclaimer to that effect in my posts?
True, with just about every new thing I read about LDS history and theology I lose ever more respect for the Church, its leaders, its beliefs, and its practices. To my mind, it represents a uniquely aberrant, dangerous, woman-demeaning, monolithic, ultra-secretive, dictatorial, and freedom-threatening institution with a smiling, happy public face. This is made all the creepier and more troubling to my way of thinking by the truly remarkable joy and enthusiasm with which the mostly unpaid Church members carry out their unquestionable dictatorial orders right here in our Constitutional Republic. The U.S. Marines aren't run nearly as dictatorially or with such an overpowering iron grip on the thinking and liberty of their soldiers!
Every time I read more of the mysterious, darkened, ultra-secretive, historical revisionist nature and machinations of the male-only corporate hierarchy of the LDS Church I can't help but think of Karl Popper's utterly damning attack on the kind of culture and practices inherent in the LDS Church in his famous work, The Open Society and Its Enemies. You will understand that this makes it difficult for me to find much to praise in that Church.
However, I draw a distinction between the Church and most of the people who belong to it (who seem like wonderful people), just as I make exactly the same distinction for Catholics and Baptists and Methodists and people who work for Amway (well, perhaps not so much the latter ;)
Respectfully,- Martin
Modified by Martin at Thu, Oct 03, 2002, 19:56:18
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Re: Explication Re: Explication -- Martin Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Craig C. ®
10/03/2002, 22:13:20
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Regarding your comments on historical revisionism, I have wondered whether this failure to face up to the past is a typical step in the maturation of organizations - like a child who refuses to take responsibility for his/her actions. Part of growing up is coming to terms with such things. In that sense, perhaps the LDS Church should be viewed as a truculent teenager, still trying to develop self honesty . In this regard, I was encoruaged to see some tentative initial steps toward increased honesty this past year regarding the Mountain Meadows massacre.
There have been some notable advocates of free and independent thought within the Church hierarchy (particularly the apostle Hugh B. Brown), though admittedly such individuals seem absent these days.
My hope is that the LDS Church will at some point mature into an organization that can allow for greater honesty and diversity of thought and expression, though this may be naive.
Craig
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Re: WHOAH!! Re: WHOAH!! -- Martin Top of thread Archive
Posted by: phishhead ®
09/30/2002, 03:36:07
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I am very sorry to hear about your friend. I also have a gay Mormon friend who has attempted suicide several times. He has struggled to change his sexual orientation because the church tells him that he can. He has wasted a lot of time and money on LDS psychologists who have tried to "fix" him. He still battles with depression to this day. I have also read numerous accounts of other gay Mormon suicides.
As I have pointed out in other posts, I believe that the LDS church is at least partly responsible for these unfortunate deaths because of its anti-gay doctrine. Any institution which promotes such harmful teachings should be condemned. While Cal, Craig C., and other ex-Mormons are right that a lot of good comes out of the church, I think the cost (human lives) is much greater than the benefits.
-phishhead
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Let's try to start this over again Re: WHOAH!! -- Martin Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Cal ®
09/30/2002, 10:21:44
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And just let me stress that I think Mormon beliefs about gays are terribly destructive. They were, in fact, the one thing that most decisively pushed me out of the church. I can remember precisely the moment that the realization hit me, back in early 1991, that I couldn't stay in the Mormon church and look any gay ever in the face without knowing I'd betrayed them.
And let me stress too that I'm not a knee-jerk anti-Catholic. In fact, I think there are clear ways in which the Catholic church is superior to the Mormon church.
Please just reread my post without the assumption that it comes from hostility. Craig's gloss on my intent may be helpful too, because it's pretty much accurate. Anyway, I'm prepared for you to correct me or help me see things from a more accurate overall perspective. I hope you can envision the possibility that I can do the same for you.Cal
Modified by Cal at Mon, Sep 30, 2002, 12:39:01
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Re: Let's try to start this over again Re: Let's try to start this over again -- Cal Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Martin ®
10/03/2002, 20:10:23
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I have waited to reply until I was sure the emotionality of my earlier reply had evaporated. Thank you for your patience and for your cooler, wiser head!
The key point is that it never entered my mind when I wrote that quick reply to Lance that my words might be construed in the way you read them to represent some kind of contest between the two Churches, else I would have taken the time to avoid such a possibility. But there can be no doubt that I spoke too casually and unwittingly left myself open to misinterpretation. I'm afraid, however, that I still feel that you read something in my words which simply was not present. I'm more than willing to grant that I substantially over-interpreted and mis-interpreted your words as being hostile as well.
May I ask that you take my words to Craig to be directed to you also? I hope you will not be offended if I insert them here for your consideration...
I have never doubted that the majority of Mormons are wonderful, loving people. In fact, I have said exactly that several times here over the years! It is really necessary that I include a disclaimer to that effect in my posts?
True, with just about every new thing I read about LDS history and theology I lose ever more respect for the Church, its leaders, its beliefs, and its practices. To my mind, it represents a uniquely aberrant, dangerous, woman-demeaning, monolithic, ultra-secretive, dictatorial, and freedom-threatening institution with a smiling, happy public face. This is made all the creepier and more troubling to my way of thinking by the truly remarkable joy and enthusiasm with which the mostly unpaid Church members carry out their unquestionable dictatorial orders right here in our Constitutional Republic. The U.S. Marines aren't run nearly as dictatorially or with such an overpowering iron grip on the thinking and liberty of their soldiers!
Every time I read more of the mysterious, darkened, ultra-secretive, historical revisionist nature and machinations of the male-only corporate hierarchy of the LDS Church I can't help but think of Karl Popper's utterly damning attack on the kind of culture and practices inherent in the LDS Church in his famous work, The Open Society and Its Enemies. You will understand that this makes it difficult for me to find much to praise in that Church.
However, I draw a distinction between the Church and most of the people who belong to it (who seem like wonderful people), just as I make exactly the same distinction for Catholics and Baptists and Methodists and people who work for Amway (well, perhaps not so much the latter ;)
With higest regards,
- Martin
Modified by Martin at Thu, Oct 03, 2002, 20:11:09
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Thanks, Martin Re: Re: Let's try to start this over again -- Martin Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Cal ®
10/08/2002, 14:33:43
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I posted it after spending the day with devout Catholics--truly wonderful people--whom I know would make it terrible to come out either as gay or atheo-agnostic, let alone both. They are wonderful people in spite of the long history of traditional Catholic beliefs and practices they've absorbed into their everyday lives.
They are some of the best people I've ever met. Perhaps they're personally better than many of the Catholics around whom you and I feel safer, i.e., those Catholics who'd smooth the way for gay agnosto-atheists; better, in short, than those Catholics whom we think are better because they've kept themselves at a thorough (Enlightenment-American?) distance from traditional Catholic authoritarianism and, at bottom, from historical Catholic brutality against heretics, Jews, non-believers, sexual deviants and so forth.
In other words, the distinction between the institution and the people holds even for the Catholic church, which now, in its belated maturity, has finally started speaking the language of human rights, tolerance (!) and so forth. Popper's "open society" is in so many ways thoroughly alien to historical Catholic institutions. The best of Catholics these days are rather distant from their institution given their humaneness and openness to the possibility that even basic teaching of the magisterium may be wrong. One only hopes that Catholics worldwide don't revert to its more traditional institutional trappings.
Maybe that explains something of my response to you. I doubt you disagree with much of anything I've said.
At any rate, I believe you're absolutely right that there's something Amwayesque about the LDS institutions, what with their secrecy and so forth. They're dangerous enough that I left them behind altogether. Plus there's a kind of bumptiousness to the Church that's altogether lacking in the best of Catholicism--but not, say, in the cults of Padre Pio or Lourdes.
Still, keep in mind that these Mormon institutions were born in America and absorbed from its foundations some of the things best loved by Americans: freedom, a kind of empiricism, scripturalized respect for the Constitution and so forth, things that institutional Catholicism has often found hard to swallow--and even resisted violently, the protestations of the best Catholics notwithstanding. The distinction between often good individual Mormons and their bad institution may work up to a point, but then it does break down ultimately, like it does with the Catholic church.
Cal
Modified by Cal at Tue, Oct 08, 2002, 14:35:42
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Apostate? Re: Reflections of an Apostate Mormon -- Lance Top of thread Archive
Posted by: The Vines ®
09/20/2002, 01:47:48
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Dear Lance:
I appreciate your post, though I did not live a similar experience in my mission. My mission president was one of the best men I have ever met in my life. He was strict with the rules but the rules were never above the individual and his authority was a loving care, like a father.
Your mission president was a dumb ass. I have heard of leaders like that, abusing their authority all the time with inner conviction of being right about it too. Perhaps this is the most dangerous type of fanatical inner reality.
I would say that I don't think your reasons for leaving the Church are well thougt out IF THAT IS THE SUM TOTAL OF THEM. In fact the feelings that you expressed are not characteristic of every experience, and in reality, individual weakness cannot be a thermometer of a faith's relevance and worthiness. Even though the scriptures say that the works shall prove... bla bla..that is pep talk to me. You can find good and bad works from heaven to hell in my opinion. Reality is that what counts is the foundation of the principles a religion or group adopts. Are they for the good of people in time, or not?
I am sure there is much more to your story than what you expressed however.
It is quite sad how the delusion of authority squashes the dignity of those who would wield it. Authority is much like the ring in the Lord of the Rings... those who hold it tend to get sucked into its evil. I think this is because authority is a bad choice in the first place, but a necessary evil in our current stage of progress as a race.
TV
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Ummmmm...... Re: Apostate? -- The Vines Top of thread Archive
Posted by: RC ®
09/20/2002, 04:37:27
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I would say that I don't think your reasons for leaving the Church are well thougt out IF THAT IS THE SUM TOTAL OF THEM.
Sure, you give a little disclaimer at the end of your spiel, but who are you to say what is well thought out and what isn't? Are you an authority in this matter? I guess we are all free to judge (whether we agree with judging or not), but why should your opinion on this matter?
You also seem so resolute. How do you KNOW anything? You even go so far as to define reality:
Reality is that what counts is the foundation of the principles a religion or group adopts. Are they for the good of people in time, or not?
I had no idea that reality was that simple. As a matter of fact, I had no idea that reality existed. And who is to say that something is for the 'good' of people or the bad? Whose standard of good are you using? Mine, yours, or the universal truth?
Like I said, I'm not interested in fighting or bickering. I simply don't agree with your presentation or your content.
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One item of clarification Re: Ummmmm...... -- RC Top of thread Archive
Posted by: The Vines ®
09/22/2002, 05:04:59
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Reality is that what counts is the foundation of the principles a religion or group adopts. Are they for the good of people in time, or not?
... I should have worder that differently. What I wanted to say is:
IN REALITY, what counts is....
I don't always express myself correctly.
As to the rest, no comment.
TV
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Re: Apostate? Re: Apostate? -- The Vines Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Lance ®
09/20/2002, 06:10:31
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My reasons for leaving the Church go far beyond my mission experiences. As I've said previously, after my mission I studied and researched intensively, and it was the result of my investigations which led me to leave. There is, as you say, much more to the story than my missionary experiences.
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Absolutely! Re: Re: Apostate? -- Lance Top of thread Archive
Posted by: The Vines ®
09/22/2002, 05:00:58
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It is not unusual to hear these business men bearing testimony of really special testimonies and it is simple to associate their way of life with higher inner order... Nothing further from reality... I have met some general authorities who were, IMO, spiritual embryos, as well as others, non general authorities. I have also met many with no authority position who outclassed spiritually the prior group, of course all IMO.
In any case, its a fact that spiritual experiences don't necessarily come from obedience to anything but the laws of cause and effect that generate these mental phenomena.
I agree with you regarding the rule thing as well. I had many leaders in my youth who made me feel like I was always light years from the mark... and then again those who never spoke in those terms at all... Its interesting how people tend to fall into categories... Those who are judgmental in the Church are always those who bring negative experiences into the lives of others.
TV
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Re: Reflections of an Apostate Mormon Re: Reflections of an Apostate Mormon -- Lance Top of thread Archive
Posted by: No Fear ®
09/23/2002, 09:42:25
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Repent, brother. I am one who communes with God on a daily basis. He loves you personally more than any of us realize. I had a similar mission experience, but my testimony of the truthfulness of the gospel is independent of any person on earth.
Your friend,
No Fear
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Re: Reflections of an Apostate Mormon Re: Re: Reflections of an Apostate Mormon -- No Fear Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Lance ®
09/23/2002, 21:37:38
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You tell me to repent. I tell you to open your eyes.
And again (how many times have I already said it?), I did not leave the church because of my missionary experiences. I left because of the extensive research, introspection, and study I did for many years after my mission. I know you'd love to believe otherwise because you don't want to face the fact that people actually do leave the church as a personal decision based on reason and study, but you're just plain wrong. Remove those blinders.
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It is you who needs to repent, No Fear Re: Re: Reflections of an Apostate Mormon -- No Fear Top of thread Archive
Posted by: phishhead ®
09/24/2002, 16:23:38
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...and thou hast elected us that we shall be saved, whilst all around us are elected to be cast by thy wrath down to hell; for the which holiness, O God, we thank thee...
Ok, so maybe the words aren't that similar, but your tone is. You are right. Lance (and all other apostates) are wrong. Do you not see how offensive this "holier-than-thou" attitude is?
No Fear, if it weren't true, would you want to know? Or would you rather just cover up your ears and bear your testimony every time someone challenges your faith? If you call yourself No Fear, then you shouldn't be afraid to explore new ideas. I suggest you read New Approaches to the Book of Mormon, edited by Brent L. Metcalfe. This book will help you understand the BoM for what it really is.
-phishhead
Modified by phishhead at Tue, Sep 24, 2002, 16:24:14
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I do need to repent... Re: It is you who needs to repent, No Fear -- phishhead Top of thread Archive
Posted by: No Fear ®
09/25/2002, 09:17:12
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If it weren't true, I would want to know. However, by the power of the holy ghost I know these things are true. This power is more convincing than sight. God has revealed to me the truthfulness of these things. Who am I to deny the power of God?
You ask if I'm afraid to explore new ideas. I am not. I have in the past, and have only discovered the philosophies of men mingled with scripture. I have discovered Satan striving to lead away the hearts of men. I think of the words of Christ (John 6:67-68) "...Will ye also go away? Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life."
By direct revelation from God I receive the words of eternal life. To whom else shall I go?
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Re: I do need to repent... Re: I do need to repent... -- No Fear Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Cal ®
09/25/2002, 14:32:46
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You could go to someone else who also receives "the words of eternal life," I suppose. It isn't as if others haven't thought they got the privilege of access to the "truth" through "direct revelation." The Lord seems to dispense this impression liberally, without much concern for the denomination, creed or color of those who ask. He has a harder time getting those who get these impressions to agree on what they've learned through direct revelation. How would you resolve these conflicts?
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Re: I do need to repent... Re: Re: I do need to repent... -- Cal Top of thread Archive
Posted by: No Fear ®
09/26/2002, 04:01:41
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If we are humble and seek truth with all our heart, might, mind and strength, there will be no disagreement on what we've learned. We will accept the gospel of Jesus Christ in its fullness.
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Hmmm. Re: Re: I do need to repent... -- No Fear Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Lance ®
09/26/2002, 04:28:05
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In other words, if any one comes to a conclusion that differs from yours, they aren't only automatically wrong, but are also not as sufficiently humble and truth seeking as you are.
Otherwise, how do you address the fact that many people do not accept what you refer to as the gospel of Jesus Christ or the Mormon church?
And what about all those who claim to be receiving revelation from God, yet are being given messages that differ from the one you believe you are receiving (or that Joseph Smith claimed to receive)? Are they by default not sufficiently humble or truth seeking simply because they claim to receive messages that differ from or contradict what you believe in?
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If we are humble and seek truth . . . Re: Re: I do need to repent... -- No Fear Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Cal ®
09/26/2002, 11:14:20
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Re: If we are humble and seek truth . . . Re: If we are humble and seek truth . . . -- Cal Top of thread Archive
Posted by: No Fear ®
09/27/2002, 08:10:59
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Cal, this is the same dilemma Joseph Smith faced. His prayers were answered, and the truth was manifested unto him by the power of the Holy Ghost. Because God is no respector of persons, you may gain the same testimony by the same power. I challenge you to try this - ask God plainly if these things are true. If you "ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost."
Doctrine that is in opposition to LDS doctrine is wrong. If revelation is in opposition to LDS doctrine it is not of God. Remember that our church is led by Christ himself through a living prophet, and twelve apostles. Yes, the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (collectively) does exemplify this humility and total commitment to truth-seeking more than any other earthly organization.
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Well, I gave it a try... Re: Re: If we are humble and seek truth . . . -- No Fear Top of thread Archive
Posted by: phishhead ®
09/27/2002, 16:09:37
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I tried your little experiment right after I read your post. I did what you said, asked God plainly if the things you believe are true. So far, God has ignored me. Then I thought of D&C 9:8-9, which reads,
"But, behold, I say unto you, that you must study it out in your mind; then you must ask me if it be right, and if it is right I will cause that your bosom shall burn within you; therefore, you shall feel that it is right.
But if it be not right you shall have no such feelings..."Hmmm, well I guess since I had "no such feelings," it's not right!
Warm fuzzy feelings and psychological tricks aside, it's really not the idea of personal revelation that I object to. Rather, I object to claims of revelation which contradict scientific or historical fact, as well as common sense and logic. There are plenty of examples in Mormonism and every other religion which I have studied. I have found overwhelming evidence against the Book of Mormon, Book of Abraham, and other LDS teachings. Many of these examples are presented on this website. (www.lds-mormon.com)
Seriously, though, No Fear, you seem like a good guy, you just haven't figured out that the church isn't true yet. But I think there is hope for you. You are definitely closer than the average Mormon, since you are at least willing to engage in dialogue here. Keep searching and you may soon understand your religion for what it really is: a product of culture.
-phishhead
Modified by phishhead at Fri, Sep 27, 2002, 16:13:10
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The TRUTH of Joseph Smith & BoM (long) Re: Re: If we are humble and seek truth . . . -- No Fear Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Martin ®
09/28/2002, 19:27:12
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Relatively few Mormons know that at one time Joseph Smith's reputation as an occultist stretched from New York to Northern Pennsylvania. Moreover, the use of occult rituals among his early followers was the norm, rather than the exception (see pp. 87-90). Much of their attachment to occultism centered around the now archaic practice of treasure hunting via divination-i.e., money-digging. The pursuit held the fascination of countless individuals throughout rural America in the early nineteenth century.These "money-diggers," as they were called, often spent most of their days and nights trying to "dig up treasure that supposedly had been buried throughout the land by pirates, Spaniards, or ancient inhabitants of the country." The more desperate souls actually formed money-digging companies of like-minded believers dedicated to pursuing a futile search for instant wealth. Their chosen means of locating this elusive treasure was occult divination by magical ceremonies and enchanted tools including "peep-stones" (or seer stones) and divining rods.
Oftentimes money-diggers would hire themselves out to persons who believed that they, too, might profit through occultism. Such activity, however, was illegal because money-diggers habitually defrauded clients out of hard-earned cash by not delivering on their promises to find large caches of buried treasure. Nevertheless, money-diggers rarely found themselves without a roster of gullible customers whose dreams of abundant assets greatly overshadowed any modicum of down-to-earth business sense they may, have possessed-and so the profession thrived.
Joseph Smith, Jr., probably gravitated toward money-digging due to his mother and father's predilection for occult ritual, white magic, superstitions, paranormal phenomena, divination, and treasure hunting. An innate interest in such issues seemed to have been very active not only in them, but also in various members of their family lines going back as far the seventeenth century. Neighbor Fayette Lapham learned from Joseph, Sr. that he was "a firm believer in witchcraft and other supernatural things; and had brought up his family in the same belief." Lapham further recalled: "[Smith] also believed that there was a vast amount of money buried somewhere in the country; that it would some day be found; that he himself had spent both time and money searching for it, with divining rods. A similar propensity manifested itself early in the Mack line as well, with family members "into the spiritual realms of visions, healings, and a quest for a new dispensation."
Such inclinations ultimately brought the Smiths in contact with a widespread money-digging network that existed in the Palmyra-Manchester area during the early-mid 1800s. Martin Harris, who financed the first edition of the Book of Mormon, explained: "There was a company there in that neighborhood, who were digging for money supposed to have been hidden by the ancients. Of this company were old Mr. Stowel -- I think his name was Josiah -- also old Mr. Beman, also Samuel Lawrence, George Proper, Joseph Smith, Jr., and his father, and his brother Hiram [Hyrum] Smith. They dug for money in Palmyra, Manchester, also in Pennsylvania, and other places."
According to local rumors, these men encountered "a great many strange sights" including disappearing strongboxes, mysterious horsemen, and nine-foot-tall strangers who beckoned them from afar. The Smiths, who were seen as leaders of the company, seemed particularly interested in telling such tales. Joshua Stafford, for instance, said that shortly after he became acquainted with Joseph's family around 1819/20 "they commenced digging for hidden treasures ... and told marvelous stories about ghosts, hob-goblins, caverns, and various other mysterious matters."
Most of the residents of Palmyra and Manchester, in fact, knew the Smiths as a close-knit clan of occultists who espoused popular superstitions embraced by nineteenth century practitioners of folk magic. Consider the text from a particularly relevant 1831 Palmyra Reflector [newspaper] article:
"We are not able to determine whether the elder Smith was ever concerned in money digging transactions previous to his emigration from Vermont, or not, but it is a well authenticated fact that soon after his arrival here he evinced a firm belief in the existence of hidden treasures, and that this section of country abounded in them -- He also revived, or in other words propagated the vulgar, yet popular belief that these treasures were held in charge by some evil spirit, which was supposed to be either the DEVIL himself, or some one of his most trusty favorites."
There is no doubt that Joseph, Jr., was deeply entrenched in occultism along with the rest of his family. William Stafford, a neighbor and fellow money-digger, stated that Joseph, Jr., used a seer stone not only to "see all things within and under the earth," but also to discover "the spirits in whose charge these treasures were, clothed in ancient dress." According to Jesse Townsend, Joseph gazed into his stone to "see chests of money buried in the earth. He was also a fortune-teller, and he claimed to know where stolen goods went." Joseph Capron had similar recollections:
"The family of Smiths held Joseph Jr. in high estimation on account of some supernatural power, which he was supposed to possess. This power he pretended to have received through the medium of a stone of peculiar quality. THE STONE WAS PLACED IN A HAT [which is PRECISELY how Joseph Smith was seen by witnesses to have allegedly magically "translated" the Book of Mormon!!], in such a manner as to exclude all tight, except that which emanated from the stone itself. This light of the stone, he pretended, enabled him to see anything he wished. Accordingly he discovered ghosts, infernal spirits, mountains of gold and silver, and many other invaluable treasures deposited in the earth. He would often tell his neighbors of his wonderful discoveries, and urge them to embark in the money digging business. Luxury and wealth were to be given to all who would adhere to his council."
One of the earliest documents referring to Smith's money-digging reputation is an 1830 letter from Rev. John Sherer to the American Home Missionary Society. In this communication, Sherer describes Smith as a person who pretends to look "through a glass, to see money underground." Rev. Sherer also labeled Smith a "juggler," a term that used to denote someone who MANIPULATED PEOPLE FOR FRAUDULENT PURPOSES - I.E., A CON-MAN.
Additional testimony shows that Joseph, Jr. and his family often engaged in complex rituals based on occult lore generally not known except by avid practitioners of folk magic. For instance, nineteenth century occultists believed there were periods throughout each lunar cycle that corresponded to times when supernatural powers were higher than usual. This is exactly what Joseph believed, according to William Stafford, who noted in his affidavit published by E.D. Howe that when it came to money-digging, Joseph believed there were certain times when the treasures could be obtained more easily than at other times: "The facility of approaching them, depended in a great measure on the state of the moon. New moon and good Friday, I believe, were regarded as the most favorable times for obtaining these treasures."
On some occasions, Smith made ANIMAL SACRIFICES to appease whatever spirits might be guarding the buried treasure. Emily M. Austin recounted one time when Joseph told his money-digging company "there was a charm on the pots of money, and if some animal was killed and the blood sprinkled around the place, then they could get it." Austin remembered: "So they KILLED A DOG and tried this method of obtaining the precious metal.... Alas! how vivid was the expectation when the blood of poor Tray [i.e., the dog] was used to take off the charm, and after all to find their mistake ... and now they were obliged to give up in despair."
Hiel Lewis, a cousin of Joseph's wife, Emma, reported that the SACRIFICE of white dogs, black cats, and other animals "was an indispensable part or appendage of the art which Smith, the embryo prophet, was then practicing." Sometimes, however, Joseph and his companions relied solely on magical rituals and occult ceremonies. Consider the following incidents, described by two different acquaintances of Joseph, Jr.:
Episode # 1:
"Joseph, Sen. first made a circle, twelve or fourteen feet in diameter. This circle, said he, contains the treasure. He then stuck in the ground a row of witch hazel sticks, around the said circle, for the purpose of keeping off the evil spirits. Within this circle he made another, of about eight or ten feet in diameter. He walked around three times on the periphery of this last circle, muttering to himself something which I could not understand. He next stuck a steel rod in the centre of the circles, and then enjoined profound silence upon us, lest we should arouse the evil spirit who had the charge of these treasures. After we had dug a trench about five feet in depth around the rod.... [Joseph, Sr.] went to the house to inquire of young Joseph the cause of our disappointment. He soon returned and said, that Joseph had remained all this time in the house, looking in his stone and watching the motions of the evil spirit that he saw the spirit come up to the ring and as soon as it beheld the cone which we had formed around the rod, it caused the money to sink."
Episode # 2:"The sapient Joseph discovered, northwest of my house a chest of gold watches; but as they were in the possession of the evil spirit, it required skill and stratagem to obtain them, Accordingly, orders were given to stick a parcel of large stakes in the ground, several rods around, in a circular form.... over the spot where the treasures were deposited... Samuel F. Lawrence, with a drawn sword in his hand, marched around to guard any assault which his Satanic majesty might be disposed to make. Meantime, the rest of the company were busily employed in digging for the watches, They worked as usual till quite exhausted, But, in spite of their defender, Lawrence, and their bulwark of stakes, the devil came off victorious, and carried away the watches."
Both of these episodes ended unsuccessfully alter the treasure was either stolen away or moved out of reach by demonic forces. Such outcomes were typical in tales circulated by nineteenth-century money-diggers. In "The Refiner's Tire: The Making of Mormon Cosmology, 1644-1844", history professor John L. Brooke of Tufts University observes: "One of the central themes in the treasure-hunting sagas was the volatility of precious metal: chests of money `bloom' to the surface of the earth only to fall away when the diggers utter a sound or violate a ritual practice."Joshua Stafford remembered Smith actually showing him "a piece of wood which he said he took from a box of money" that had mysteriously moved back into the hill. Many years later in Utah, two of Smith's closest associates -- Martin Harris and Orrin Porter Rockwell -- actually gave recollections of having been present when this corner of a wooden treasure box was broken off before it "slipped back into the hill" under the influence of some unseen power.
. . .
BOUND IN BAINBRIDGEThe transcript of Smith's appearance in court was first published in 1873 in Fraser's Magazine (an English periodical). During this preliminary hearing (then called an "examination"), Joseph admitted that he possessed "a certain stone" that he occasionally used to determine where treasures were hidden in the earth. The court record continued: "[H]e professed to tell in this manner where gold mines were a distance underground, and had looked for Mr. Stowell several times, and had informed him where he could find these treasures." Stowell attempted to defend Joseph, but ended up doing more harm than good by testifying that he positively knew Smith could "tell, and did possess the art of seeing those valuable treasures through the medium of said stone." He further stated that he had the most implicit faith in Joseph's skills. After others testified that they, too, had witnessed Smith's illegal activities, the court pronounced him guilty.
Joseph escaped jail time, however, when the court subtly suggested he leave town and never return. This common show of mercy, known at that time as "Leg Bail," may have been granted because Smith was only twenty years old. In an 1831 letter to the Evangelical Magazine and Gospel Advocate, Bainbridge resident A.W. Benton recounted what he witnessed at Smith's trial: "[C]onsidering his youth, (he then being a minor,) and thinking he might reform his conduct, he was designedly allowed to escape. This was four or five years ago. From this time he absented himself from this place, returning only privately, and holding clandestine intercourse with his credulous dupes, for two or three years." Joel K. Noble, a justice of the peace during that era, corroborated Benton's account, stating: "Jo. was condemned. [The] Whisper came to Jo. 'off, off' -- [He] took Leg Bail... Jo was not seen in our town for 2 years or more (except in Dark Corners)."
For many years Mormons steadfastly viewed all such statements, including the court transcript published in 1873, as nothing but anti-Mormon propaganda created to smear the good name of their prophet. In reference to the Bainbridge court record, for example, LDS author Francis Kirkham adamantly declared "no such record was ever made, and therefore, is not in existence." The LDS church-owned "Deseret News" called it a "fabrication of unknown authorship and never in the court records at all." Mormon apostle John Widtsoe stated: "This alleged court record ... seems to be a literary attempt of an enemy to ridicule Joseph Smith.... There is no existing proof that such a trial was ever held." The reason for such ardent denials was articulated well by Dr. Hugh Nibley, one of Mormonism's staunchest defenders. In 1967, he wrote: "If this court record is authentic, it is the most damning evidence in existence against Joseph Smith."
Then, in 1971, concrete evidence for the transcript's validity was unearthed by Wesley P. Walters and Fred Poffarl, two religion researchers who had been investigating Mormonism for many years. While searching through court records stored in the basement of an old county jail in New York, they discovered two cardboard boxes shoved against a wall in a darkened corner. They contained bundles of water damaged court bills dating back to the early 1800s. The 1826 bundle included several bills showing court costs of a Justice Albert Neely. One of his cases referred to none other that "Joseph Smith the Glass Looker." Neely's charges, $2.68, exactly matched the figure given for court costs in Fraser's Magazine. The date also was the same-March 20, 1826 (see photo, p. 45).
For many years Mormons tried in vain to cast aspersions on the legitimacy of the Neely document. But finally, in 1992, LDS church historian Leonard J. Arrington conceded that the bill was indeed drawn up by Neely and that it referred to Smith "as a `glass looker' (one who, by peering through a glass stone, could see things not discernible by the natural eye)."
Interestingly, before Neely's bill had surfaced, Francis Kirkham made a very telling comment based on his complete confidence that no evidence would ever be found to substantiate the 1826 trial: "If any evidence had been in existence that Joseph Smith had used a seer stone for fraud and deception, and especially had he made this confession in a court of law as early as 1826, or four years before the Book of Mormon was printed, and this confession was in a court record, it would have been impossible for him to have [legitimately] organized the restored Church."
GOING FOR THE GOLD
After his 9826 brush with the law, Smith temporarily seemed more interested in romance than in money-digging. Even before his arrest, while continuing to hunt treasure for Stowell in New York, Smith often returned to Pennsylvania to see Emma. But when he asked for permission to marry her, it was refused. Her father remembers: "I gave him my reasons for so doing; some of which were, that he was a stranger, and followed a business that I could not approve: he then left the place." Joe, however, would not take no for an answer, and on January 18, 1827, while Isaac was away from home, he took Emma to New York and married her. Smith apparently began pondering his financial situation around this same time, realizing that money-digging alone was bringing in only about $14 a month, which was not nearly enough to support a family.
So, at some point in 1826/27, Smith began telling others, most notably his money-digging friends, about the existence of a golden book he would soon be retrieving from a secret place that had been revealed to him through his seer stone. Smith originally attached no religious significance to the mysterious volume, but instead, touted it as a book that would, according to neighbor Parley Chase (b. 1806), "tell him how to get money that was buried in the ground." In other words, it would compliment to his money-digging activities.
Abner Cole, a former justice of the peace who became editor of the Palmyra Reflector, recalled a similar explanation that came directly from young Joseph's father. His account provides invaluable information that suggests how the whole series of stories involving visions probably began:
"[T]he elder Smith declared that his son Jo had seen the spirit, (which he then described as a little old man with a long beard,) and was informed that he (Jo) under certain circumstances, eventually should obtain great treasures, and that in due time he (the spirit) would furnish him (Jo) with a book, which would give an account of the Ancient inhabitants (antideluvians,) of this country, and where they had deposited their substance, consisting of costly furniture, &c.... which had ever since that time remained secure in his (the spirit's) charge, in large and spacious chambers, in sundry places in this vicinity."
Eventually, however, Joseph decided that instead of keeping the book as a means of finding more treasure, it would be far more profitable to sell the volume as a speculation about America's ancient inhabitants and their origins. Neighbor Joseph Capron remembered an especially enlightening conversation he had with Joseph, Sr., who never even intimated that the volume would be religious:
[Joseph, Jr.] pretended to find the Gold Plates. This scheme, he believed, would relieve the family from all pecuniary embarrassment. His father told me, that when the book was published, they would be enabled, from the profits of the work, to carry into successful operation of the money digging business. He gave me no intimation, at that time that the book was to be of a religious character, or that it had any thing to do with revelation. He declared it to be a speculation, and said he, "when it is completed, my family will be placed on a level above the generality of mankind."
But Joseph kept changing his mind again and again, not only about the hidden book's contents, but also about how he discovered its existence, and how he retrieved it. He could not keep his story straight, nor could his siblings, or parents. Parley Chase recalled that when it came to explaining exactly how the plates were found, the Smiths "scarcely ever told two stories alike." In hindsight, some of these accounts sound like a cross between Washington Irving's "The Legend of Sleepy Hollow" (1819-20) and assorted pirate tales featuring the likes of Captain Kidd (1645-1701), whom Joseph, interestingly enough, claimed to have seen "sailing on the Susquehanna River" one day while gazing into his peepstone. (He also said he saw where Kidd had buried "two pots of gold and silver.")
Long before area residents heard any of the "first" or "second" vision accounts thus far discussed, a number of radically different explanations about the golden plates had been circulated by the Smiths. On one occasion, Joseph, Jr. told his wife's cousin, Hiel Lewis, that he learned about the golden plates IN A DREAM, and that on his first attempt to get them in 1823, he was "knocked down" several times by a mysterious power. Joseph then claimed to have seen the ghost of a man "standing over the spot, who, to him appeared like a Spaniard, having a long beard coming down over his breast to about here, (Smith putting his hand to the pit of his stomach) WITH HIS (the ghost's) THROAT CUT FROM EAR TO EAR, AND THE BLOOD STREAMING DOWN, who told him that he could not get it [the plates] alone; that another person whom he, Smith, would know at first sight, must come with him, and then he could get it" (emphases in original).
Fayette Lapham heard the same scenario from Joseph, Sr. -- i.e., that the golden plates had been revealed to young Joseph VIA A DREAM. And that during this dream "a very large and tall man appeared to him, dressed in an ancient suit of clothes, and the clothes were bloody." The gruesome apparition told Joseph "there was a valuable treasure, buried many years since, and not far from that place ... [and] he would direct him to the place where it was deposited, in such a manner that he could obtain it."
Lapham was then told the rest of the story just as it had been related to Emma's cousin, including the part about Joseph, Jr. being struck down and seeing the Spaniard appear at the location. According to Joseph, Sr., the macabre ghost had been "sworn to take charge of and protect that property, until the time should arrive for it to be exhibited to the world of mankind; and, in order to prevent his making a improper disclosure, he was murdered or slain on the spot, and the treasure had been under his charge ever since. He said to him [Joseph] that ... if he would come again one year from that time, he could have them."
The Smiths eventually changed Joseph's "dream" of a ghost to a "vision" of a spirit (but not yet an angel). This version was told to Willard Chase. He recalled that in June of 1827 Joseph Smith, Sr. related an astonishing story that allegedly had been unfolding since 1823 (the same year now accepted by Mormons as the time of Joseph's second vision). According to the elder Smith, a "spirit" had appeared in a vision and communicated to his son that "in a certain place there was a record on plates of gold, and that he was the person that must obtain them." The spirit then instructed young Joseph to go to this location on September 22, 1823, but to do so "dressed in black clothes, and riding a black horse with a switch tail. Joseph was then supposed to demand the book, using a special secret word, and after obtaining plates, "go directly away, and neither lay it down nor look behind him."
Joseph, Sr. informed Chase that his son did in fact dress himself in a suit of black clothes and borrowed a black horse. He journeyed to the hill and briefly retrieved the plates (in 1823) until they supernaturally flew back to where they had been. Apparently, Joseph had placed them down to adjust the positioning of supplies on his horse, which disobeyed the spirit's command to "go directly away." Consequently, the plates slipped back into the hill. One fascinating addition to this particular story involved an as yet unheard of toad-like creature that appeared when Joseph tried to re-obtain the plates after they had deposited themselves back into the hill. This entity "assumed the appearance of a man" and struck Joseph on the side of his head, telling Joseph that it was not yet time to retrieve the plates and that he would have to return in one year.
A subsequent version of Smith's ever-changing tale, one sounding a bit more Christian, was related to Martin Harris, who in turn told it to the Rochester Gem, which published a synopsis of it:
"In the autumn of 1827 a man named Joseph Smith of Manchester, in Ontario County, said that he had been visited by the spirit of the Almighty in a dream, and informed that in a certain hill in that town, was deposited a Golden Bible, containing an ancient record of a divine origin. He states that after a third visit from the same spirit in a dream, he proceeded to the spot, removed earth, and there found the bible, together with a huge pair of spectacles."
Over the years these yarns gradually were revised and expanded, eventually becoming today's official account of the 1823 "second" vision featuring the angel Moroni. One element of the earlier stories, however, did not easily give way. Until well into the late 1800s it was widely understood that Smith found the golden plates not by a dream, or a ghost, or a vision -- but by looking into his peep-stone and seeing where they had been deposited. Orasmus Turner recalled one day when Joseph was away from home, and his family inadvertently revealed how he actually had found the plates, if indeed, there ever were any:
"[I]n his absence, the rest of the family made a new version of it to one of their neighbors. They spewed him such a pebble as may any day be picked up on the shore of Lake Ontario .... They said it was by looking at this stone, in a hat, the light excluded, that Joseph discovered the plates.... It was the same stone the Smith's had used in money digging, and in some pretended discoveries of stolen property."
This may have been the most prevalent Mormon understanding of the events leading to the retrieval of Smith's golden plates. Even Brigham Young, Smith's successor to the LDS presidency, knew that Smith used his peep-stone to find the golden plates. In 1856, Mormon pioneer Hosea Stout recorded in his diary that Young actually "exhibited the Seer's stone with which the Prophet Joseph discovered the plates of the Book of Mormon." Martin Harris, one of Smith's closest allies and a crucial figure in the creation of the Book of Mormon, also testified to the peep-stone's use:
"Joseph had a stone which was dug from the well of Mason Chase.... It was by means of this stone that he first discovered these plates.... [Joseph) had before described the manner of his finding the plates. He found them by looking in the stone.... The family bad likewise told me the same thing."
No one will probably ever know exactly how these earliest stories developed and merged. But one thing is certain -- all of the religious aspects of Smith's adventures came much later. Orasmus Turner wrote: "The primitive designs of Mrs. Smith, her husband, Jo, and Cowdery, was money-making; blended with which perhaps, was a desire for notoriety, to be obtained by cheat and fraud. The idea of being the founders of a new sect, was an after thought, in which they were aided by others." In agreement with Turner, Joseph Smith's cousin-in-law, Hiel Lewis, summarized:
"In all this narrative, there was not one word about 'visions of God,' or of angels or heavenly revelations. All his information was by that dream, and that bleeding ghost. The heavenly visions and messages of angels, etc., contained in Mormon books were after-thoughts, revised to order."
Many of Joseph's doctrines would end up fitting into this category of "afterthoughts" -- e.g., his revelations concerning God's nature, inhabitants on the moon, Caucasians advancing to godhood, and the notion that Blacks, Indians, and other people of color are cursed spirits (see Chapter Sixteen). Smith's most significant "afterthought," however, would be his role as a latter-day prophet commissioned to lead humanity into the glorious millennial kingdom of God. But first he would have to decipher the mysterious writing on the Book of Mormon plates, and offer his translation to the world.
THE ART OF TRANSLATING
After supposedly retrieving the plates, Smith took extreme measures to avoid at all costs anyone who might want to see them. The angel, according to Joseph, had warned him that he would lose possession of the plates if he let anyone else see them. This certainly convinced his family. But still troublesome to Joseph were the men associated with his money-digging company. They felt that "they had as much right to the plates as Joseph [did]" and that he had "been [a] traitor and had appropriated to himself that which belonged to them."
Smith responded by hiding the plates; first, in the hollow of a tree, then under the hearth of his house, then under an old cooper's shop. As a result, few people, except for Joseph's family and the money-diggers, even believed the golden book truly existed. After all, no one had actually seen the plates, nor would anyone ever see them. (After the plates were "translated," they were returned to the angel by Smith, who claimed to have deposited them in a huge cave filled with treasure.)
But unbelievers were the least of Joseph's problems. A far more pressing issue was his lack of funds to carry out the God-given task of translating, then publishing, the Book of Mormon. A solution to this problem came in the form of Martin Harris, a prosperous farmer with considerable land. He also happened to be a religious fanatic prone to visions and other supernatural phenomena. Angelic visitations, ghostly encounters, and meetings with Jesus Christ were commonplace in Harris' life.
On one occasion, Harris told Stephen S. Harding that he "saw the devil, in all his hideousness, on the road just before dark, near his farm, a little north of Palmyra." This terrifying encounter began when his horses suddenly stopped: "[Harris] then commenced smelling brimstone, and knew the Devil was in the road, and saw him plainly as he walked up the hill and disappeared.... [Satan looked like] 'a greyhound as big as a horse, without any tail, walking upright on his hind legs.'" He told another gentleman in Palmyra that "while the Book of Mormon translation was going on, that on the way [to Pennsylvania] he met the Lord Jesus Christ, who walked along by the side of him in the shape of a deer for two or three miles, talking with him as familiarly as one man talks with another."
- - - - - -Obviously, the Book of Mormon and all of Mormonism ARE FRAUDULENT PRODUCTS OF AN OCCULT CON MAN!
- Martin
Modified by Martin at Sat, Sep 28, 2002, 19:31:43
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Re: The TRUTH of Joseph Smith & BoM (long) Re: The TRUTH of Joseph Smith & BoM (long) -- Martin Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Lance ®
09/29/2002, 01:10:48
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Modified by Lance at Sun, Sep 29, 2002, 01:37:09
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Re: The TRUTH of Joseph Smith & BoM (long) Re: The TRUTH of Joseph Smith & BoM (long) -- Martin Top of thread Archive
Posted by: No Fear ®
09/29/2002, 04:53:19
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Re: The TRUTH of Joseph Smith & BoM (long) Re: Re: The TRUTH of Joseph Smith & BoM (long) -- No Fear Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Craig C. ®
09/29/2002, 07:41:06
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Also, don't you think that the treasure-seeking account of Joseph's early life fits well with descriptions of treasures hidden in the earth, as described in Helaman 13:18-21, and descriptions of "slippery" treasures, as described in Helaman 13: 31, 35-36?
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Are you trying to persuade anyone? Re: Re: The TRUTH of Joseph Smith & BoM (long) -- No Fear Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Cal ®
09/29/2002, 15:49:01
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You might, at any rate, come off as a more credible advocate for your views if you offered up thoughtful responses. Up to now, I haven't seen anything but the assurance that you know the truth. Anyone could offer that assurance.
Perhaps sensing that you've been directly given the truth makes you feel great, makes you feel "no fear," but it's an assurance that any sensible person should doubt if they hear it from you on your own testimony. How many salesman in American history have been convinced that their hopeless scheme could only benefit the customer? What distinguishes you from them?
At any rate, if you don't want us to think you're a two-dimensional figure--just one more person who's sure that his views are right because they're, well, the views he holds--then you ought to consider how to offer three-dimensional responses to our questions.
Modified by Cal at Sun, Sep 29, 2002, 15:58:45
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Let's look at all whom you are calling liars Re: Re: The TRUTH of Joseph Smith & BoM (long) -- No Fear Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Martin ®
09/29/2002, 20:31:22
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It's interesting that you call me a liar and alleged tool of Satan considering that I wrote less than 30 words of that entire post!
Let's look who you ARE calling liars, though, since the following people were quoted in that excerpt from One Nation Under Gods: A History of the Mormon Church by Richard Abanes:
You implied the following person was a liar and tool of Satan:Joseph Smith, Jr. (admitted in court that he used "a certain stone" in his occult money-digging to seek buried treasures. Reported to multiple witnesses his claim of "the existence of a golden book he would soon be retrieving from a secret place that had been revealed to him through his seer stone." Claimed to have observed the ghost of Captain Kidd "sailing on the Susquehanna River" using his occult peepstone. Told his wife's cousin, Hiel Lewis, that he learned about the "golden plates" in a dream rather than a vision. Claimed to have seen the ghost of a bloody Spaniard with his throat cut guarding the alleged "golden plates".)
You implied the following person was a liar and tool of Satan:Joseph Smith, Sr. (well-known occultist and money-digger. Claimed to witnesses that the ostensible "golden book" his son spoke of had nothing whatsoever to do with anything religious but was claimed instead to tell of buried treasure. Also insisted that his son's dream/vision regarding said "golden book" was not of any religious figures but was instead of little old man with a long beard who told his son that the "golden book" would also contain story of ancient American inhabitants.)
You implied the following person was a liar and tool of Satan:Martin Harris (devoted follower of Joseph Smith, Jr., who sold his farm to pay for the first publication of the Book of Mormon.)
You implied the following person was a liar and tool of Satan:Brigham Young (who steadfastly insisted that Jos. Smith, Jr., used his peepstone to find alleged "gold plates", in DIRECT CONTRADICTION of later official LDS untruths and misrepresentations.)
You implied the following person was a liar and tool of Satan:Hosea Stout (famous Mormon leader. Emphasized along with Brigham Young that Jos. Smith, Jr. discovered alleged "gold plates" by use of his money-digging peepstone and did not learn its location from vision of any kind and that discovery did not involve any religious figures.)
You implied the following person was a liar and tool of Satan:Rev. John Sherer (reported Jos. Smith, Jr's occult practices, including his occult use of seer stone and also reported that Smith was a fraudulent con man.)
You implied the following person was a liar and tool of Satan:Fayette Lapham (neighbor of the Smiths and witness to their occult practices and money-digging. Reported that Jos. Smith, Jr. emphasized that the ostensible "golden book" was raveled to him in a dream rather than a vision, and was guarded by a ghost of a Spaniard with bloody clothes.)
You implied the following person was a liar and tool of Satan:Josiah Stowel (partner of Jos. Smith, Jr., who testified in his defense at Smith's money-digging trial, of which even the LDS apologists admit Smith was convicted.)
You implied the following person was a liar and tool of Satan:Joshua Stafford (acquaintance of the Smiths and witness to their occult practices and money-digging.)
You implied the following person was a liar and tool of Satan:Reporter(s) and editor(s) of the newspaper Palmyra Reflector (who reported the Smiths' extensive occult practices and money-digging.)
You implied the following person was a liar and tool of Satan:William Stafford (neighbor and fellow money-digger with the Smiths who reported Jos. Smith, Jr's use of seer stones for occult purposes. Submitted legal affidavit regarding Smith's and his family's infamous occult and white magic practices and money-digging.)
You implied the following person was a liar and tool of Satan:Jesse Townsend (reported Smiths' occult practices.)
You implied the following person was a liar and tool of Satan:Joseph Capron (neighbor of the Smiths. Reported Smiths' occult practices, particularly including Jos. Smith, Jr's occult use of seer stone in hat -- precisely how Smith "located" and "translated" the BoM from the alleged "gold book".)
You implied the following person was a liar and tool of Satan:Emily M. Austin (reported Smiths' occult practices, particularly including Jos. Smith Jr's bloody, occult animal sacrifices to ward off evil spirits in money-digging activities.)
You implied the following person was a liar and tool of Satan:Hiel Lewis (cousin of Joseph's wife, Emma. Reported Jos. Smith, Jr's occult practices, particularly including his bloody, occult animal sacrifices to ward off evil spirits in money-digging activities.)
You implied the following person was a liar and tool of Satan:Fraser's Magazine (which published the transcript of Smith's trial and conviction for fraudulent, occult money-digging.)
You implied the following person was a liar and tool of Satan:A.W. Benton (witness to Jos. Smith, Jr's trial and conviction for fraudulent, occult money-digging.)
You implied the following person was a liar and tool of Satan:Joel K. Noble (Justice of the Peace, witness to Jos. Smith, Jr's trial and conviction for fraudulent, occult money-digging.)
You implied the following person was a liar and tool of Satan:Wesley P. Walters (religion researcher who discovered concrete evidence of the truth of the trial transcript of Jos. Smith, Jr's trial and conviction for fraudulent, occult money-digging.)
You implied the following person was a liar and tool of Satan:Fred Poffarl (religion researcher who discovered concrete evidence of the truth of the trial transcript of Jos. Smith, Jr's trial and conviction for fraudulent, occult money-digging.)
You implied the following person was a liar and tool of Satan:Justice Albert Neely (Trial Judge who proceeded over Jos. Smith, Jr's trial and conviction for fraudulent, occult money-digging.)
You implied the following person was a liar and tool of Satan:Leonard J. Arrington (LDS church historian who admitted that the evidence discovered by Walters and Poffarl was legitimate and validated the trial transcript of Jos. Smith, Jr's trial and conviction for fraudulent, occult money-digging.)
You implied the following person was a liar and tool of Satan:Parley Chase (neighbor of the Smiths. Witness and reporter of Jos. Smith, Jr's claim that the ostensible "golden book" had nothing whatsoever to do with anything religious but was claimed by Smith instead to tell of buried treasure. Reported that the Smiths "scarcely ever told two stories alike.")
You implied the following person was a liar and tool of Satan:Abner Cole (Justice of the Peace and editor of Palmyra Reflector. Reported Jos. Smith, Jr's claim that the ostensible "golden book" had nothing whatsoever to do with anything religious but was claimed by Smith instead to tell of buried treasure. Also reported that Jos. Smith, Sr. insisted that his son's dream/vision was not of any religious figures but was instead of little old man with a long beard who told his son that the "golden book" would also contain story of ancient American inhabitants.)
You implied the following person was a liar and tool of Satan:Willard Chase (was told a somewhat different version of the story in which Smith claimed he learned of the alleged "golden book" from a ghost rather than a dream or vision. Claimed he had to try to retrieve said book "dressed in black clothes, and riding a black horse with a switch tail" and say a secret word.)
You implied the following person was a liar and tool of Satan:Orasmus Turner (reported that he was told by the Smiths that Jos., Jr. used his occult, money-digging peepstone to find alleged "gold plates".)
Please provide documentary evidence to validate your accusations. How many others are you going to call liars and Satan's tools, Mr. Full of Fear of the Truth?
- Martin
Modified by Martin at Sun, Sep 29, 2002, 20:48:05
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Re: The TRUTH of Joseph Smith & BoM (long) Re: Re: The TRUTH of Joseph Smith & BoM (long) -- No Fear Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Lance ®
09/30/2002, 03:45:09
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Really, if you're going to assert something like this then you need to at least take responsibility for what you're saying and explain it, as well as provide supportive points and evidence.
How do you justify the comparison of Martin with Satan in response to his well presented material? In what way is he mixing truth with lies? If you believe that what you're saying is accurate, then surely you can argue for it and support it. What are the truths, specifically, and what are the lies, specifically? And how are you distinguishing between the two?
Really, without some kind of support this response to Martin seems a bit amateur and evasive. Do you really think you can responsibly counter the kind of support Martin provides in his post with quick little insults, essentially a baseless one-liner ad hominem? What Martin wrote took thought and effort. What you wrote probably took all of ten seconds to compose and post. Martin provided evidence. You provided insult.
If you think what you said here has basis in fact, then support it. The responsibility to do so is on you, as you made the claim. Show exactly what is truth and what is lies in Martin's post, and how he's mixing the two. Take responsibility for what you assert about others.
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Re: The TRUTH of Joseph Smith & BoM (long) Re: Re: The TRUTH of Joseph Smith & BoM (long) -- No Fear Top of thread Archive
Posted by: No Fear ®
09/30/2002, 07:30:32
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It is also apparent that Martin is in more opposition to God than many of you. By expounding on the words he set forth (though not written by him) I would be casting pearls before swine.
Again, I think of the words of Christ (Matthew 27):
12 And when he was accused of the chief priests and elders, he answered anothing.
13 Then said Pilate unto him, Hearest thou not how many things they witness against thee?
14 And he answered him to never a word; insomuch that the governor marvelled greatly.
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Count me among the swine Re: Re: The TRUTH of Joseph Smith & BoM (long) -- No Fear Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Craig C. ®
09/30/2002, 07:50:36
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It is surely a great vanity to imagine that you refuse to address the issues Martin has raised because you are emulating Christ's example.
It seems more likely that you choose not to respond because you do not know how to respond.
I'd rather wallow with the swine than spend one second with the ignorant and self-righteous Pharisees.
Craig
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Re: The TRUTH of Joseph Smith & BoM (long) Re: Re: The TRUTH of Joseph Smith & BoM (long) -- No Fear Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Lance ®
09/30/2002, 09:00:08
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This is dishonest. I've seen this copout many times, and it doesn't impress. You're not choosing to avoid casting 'pearls' before 'swine' by not explaining and supporting your irresponsible comment--you simply have no legitimate support for it and refuse to honestly admit it.
The only person you're fooling here is, sadly, yourself.
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Fine, I'll respond - give me a day Re: The TRUTH of Joseph Smith & BoM (long) -- Martin Top of thread Archive
Posted by: No Fear ®
09/30/2002, 11:49:09
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The LIES of Martin's post (my words in red) Re: The TRUTH of Joseph Smith & BoM (long) -- Martin Top of thread Archive
Posted by: No Fear ®
10/02/2002, 07:32:31
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Please read this excerpt
from: One Nation Under Gods: A History of the Mormon Church, by Richard
Albanes...
Relatively few Mormons know that at one time Joseph Smith's reputation as
an occultist stretched from New York to Northern Pennsylvania. At
a young age we (members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints)
are taught of the persecutions and false rumors that prevailed about the prophet
Joseph in the northeastern US. Moreover, the use of occult rituals
among his early followers was the norm, rather than the exception (see pp.
87-90). The ordinances performed are sacred
before God. One of these sacred ordinances is baptism. Much of their
attachment to occultism centered around the
now archaic practice of treasure hunting via divination-i.e., money-digging
(a lie – see comments below). The pursuit
held the fascination of countless individuals throughout rural America in
the early nineteenth century.
These "money-diggers,"
as they were called, often spent most of their days and nights trying to "dig
up treasure that supposedly had been buried throughout the land by pirates,
Spaniards, or ancient inhabitants of the country." The more desperate
souls actually formed money-digging companies of like-minded believers dedicated
to pursuing a futile search for instant wealth. Their chosen means of locating
this elusive treasure was occult divination by magical ceremonies and enchanted
tools including "peep-stones" (or seer stones) and divining rods.
style='color:red'>Possessors of the seer stones (“urim and thummim”) are what
constituted seers in ancient days. God will not permit these stones to be
used unrighteously.
Oftentimes money-diggers
would hire themselves out to persons who believed that they, too, might profit
through occultism. Such activity, however, was illegal because money-diggers
habitually defrauded clients out of hard-earned cash by not delivering on
their promises to find large caches of buried treasure. Nevertheless, money-diggers
rarely found themselves without a roster of gullible customers whose dreams
of abundant assets greatly overshadowed any modicum of down-to-earth business
sense they may, have possessed-and so the profession thrived.
Joseph Smith, Jr., probably
gravitated toward money-digging due to his mother and father's predilection
for occult ritual, white magic, superstitions, paranormal phenomena, divination,
and treasure hunting.style='color:red'> An innate interest in such issues seemed to have been
very active not only in them, but also in various members of their family
lines going back as far the seventeenth century. Neighbor Fayette Lapham learned
from Joseph, Sr. that he was "a firm believer in witchcraft and other
supernatural things; and had brought up his family in the same belief."
Lapham further recalled: "[Smith] also believed that there was a vast
amount of money buried somewhere in the country; that it would some day be
found; that he himself had spent both time and money searching for it, with
divining rods. Considering the fact that most of the
Smith’s neighbors despised them, this source is not credible. There will
be greatest opposition from Satan against the greatest truth. A similar
propensity manifested itself early in the Mack line as well, with family members
"into the spiritual realms of visions, healings, and a quest for a new
dispensation." There is some truth in this quote.
style='color:red'>Lucy Mack Smith especially (Joseph’s mother) was unsatisfied
with the churches of their day and prayed that the true church would be revealed
to her husband, Joseph Smith Sr. They did have dreams in which truth was
revealed to them. Another testimony that the heavens are not shut! God is
the same yesterday, today, and forever. If there were healings in the meridian
of time when Christ lived on the earth and during other dispensations, then
faith permitting, there are healings now.
Such inclinations ultimately
brought the Smiths in contact with a widespread money-digging network that
existed in the Palmyra-Manchester area during the early-mid 1800s. Martin
Harris, who financed the first edition of the Book of Mormon, explained: "There
was a company there in that neighborhood, who were digging for money supposed
to have been hidden by the ancients. Of this company were old Mr. Stowel --
I think his name was Josiah -- also old Mr. Beman, also Samuel Lawrence, George
Proper, Joseph Smith, Jr., and his father, and his brother Hiram [Hyrum]
Smith. They dug for money in Palmyra, Manchester, also in Pennsylvania, and
other places." style='color:red'>This quote is close to being true. I quote from Joseph Smith-History
(Pearl of Great Price):
56 In the year
1823 my father's family met with a great affliction by the death of my eldest
brother, Alvin. In the month of October, 1825, I hired with an old gentleman
by the name of Josiah Stoal, who lived in Chenango county, State of New York.
He had heard something of a silver mine having been opened by the Spaniards
in Harmony, Susquehanna county, State of Pennsylvania; and had, previous to
my hiring to him, been digging, in order, if possible, to discover the mine.
After I went to live with him, he took me, with the rest of his hands, to
dig for the silver mine, at which I continued to work for nearly a month,
without success in our undertaking, and finally I prevailed with the old gentleman
to cease digging after it. Hence arose the very prevalent story of my having
been a money-digger.
Why did the Lord
permit Joseph to associate with this work? Read on…
57 During the
time that I was thus employed, I was put to board with a Mr. Isaac Hale, of
that place; it was there I first saw my wife (his daughter), Emma Hale. On
the 18th of January, 1827, we were married, while I was yet employed in the
service of Mr. Stoal.
“The family is
ordained of God. Marriage between man and woman is essential to His eternal
plan” (The Family: A Proclamation to the World).
According to local rumors
(red flag), these men encountered "a great
many strange sights" including disappearing strongboxes, mysterious horsemen,
and nine-foot-tall strangers who beckoned them from afar. The Smiths, who
were seen as leaders of the company, seemed particularly interested in telling
such tales. Joshua Stafford, for instance, said that shortly after he became
acquainted with Joseph's family around 1819/20 "they commenced digging
for hidden treasures ... and told marvelous stories about ghosts, hob-goblins,
caverns, and various other mysterious matters."
Most of the residents
of Palmyra and Manchester (Satan had power over the
hearts of many men), in fact, knew the Smiths as a close-knit clan
of occultists who espoused popular superstitions embraced by nineteenth
century practitioners of folk magic. Consider the text from a particularly
relevant 1831 Palmyra Reflector [newspaper] article:
"We are not able
to determine whether the elder Smith was ever concerned in money digging transactions
previous to his emigration from Vermont, or not, but it is a well authenticated
fact that soon after his arrival here he evinced a firm belief in the existence
of hidden treasures, and that this section of country abounded in them --
He also revived, or in other words propagated the vulgar, yet popular belief
that these treasures were held in charge by some evil spirit, which was supposed
to be either the DEVIL himself, or some one of his most trusty favorites."
No, no, more lies. Joseph Smith did receive revelation
concerning plates of gold that contain the words of ancient prophets who lived
on the American continent - The Book of Mormon. These plates were held in
charge by Moroni, a resurrected being sent from God.
There is no doubt
that Joseph, Jr., was deeply entrenched in occultism along with the rest of
his family. William Stafford, a neighbor and fellow money-digger, stated
that Joseph, Jr., used a seer stone not only to "see all things within
and under the earth," but also to discover "the spirits in whose
charge these treasures (spiritual treasures, like
the Book of Mormon) were, clothed in ancient dress." According
to Jesse Townsend, Joseph gazed into his stone to "see chests of money
buried in the earth. Close – a chest with golden plates
(The Book of Mormon). See how Satan twists the truth? He was also
a fortune-teller, and he claimed to know where stolen goods went." A
prophet may see the future and other truths hidden from the world because
of disbelief. That’s what prophesying is! Joseph Capron had similar
recollections:
"The family of Smiths
held Joseph Jr. in high estimation on account of some supernatural power,
which he was supposed to possess. This power he pretended to have received
through the medium of a stone of peculiar quality. THE STONE WAS PLACED IN
A HAT [which is PRECISELY how Joseph Smith was seen by witnesses to have allegedly
magically "translated" the Book of Mormon!!], in such a manner as
to exclude all tight, except that which emanated from the stone itself. This
light of the stone, he pretended, enabled him to see anything he wished. style='color:red'>He did use the stones to assist in the translation of the Book
of Mormon. Typical of a God-sent prophet, seer, and revelator, he saw many
things. Accordingly he discovered ghosts, infernal spirits, mountains
of gold and silver, and many other invaluable treasures deposited in the earth.
He would often tell his neighbors of his wonderful discoveries, and urge them
to embark in the money digging business. Lie.
Luxury and wealth were to be given to all who would adhere to
his council." Lie. Only treasures in heaven,
such as eternal life, are guaranteed to all who adhere to his council.
One of the earliest documents
referring to Smith's money-digging reputation is an 1830 letter from Rev.
John Sherer to the American Home Missionary Society. In this communication,
Sherer describes Smith as a person who pretends to look "through a
glass, to see money underground." Rev. Sherer also labeled Smith
a "juggler," a term that used to denote someone who MANIPULATED
PEOPLE FOR FRAUDULENT PURPOSES - I.E., A CON-MAN.
Joseph Smith-History
(Pearl of Great Price)
23 It caused me serious reflection then, and often has since, how very strange
it was that an obscure boy, of a little over fourteen years of age, and one,
too, who was doomed to the necessity of obtaining a scanty maintenance by
his daily labor, should be thought a character of sufficient importance to
attract the attention of the great ones of the most popular sects of the day,
and in a manner to create in them a spirit of the most bitter persecution
and reviling.
Additional testimony shows
that Joseph, Jr. and his family often engaged in complex rituals based on
occult lore generally not known except by avid practitioners of folk magic.
For instance, nineteenth century occultists believed there were periods throughout
each lunar cycle that corresponded to times when supernatural powers were
higher than usual. This is exactly what Joseph believed, according to William
Stafford, who noted in his affidavit published by E.D. Howe that when it came
to money-digging, Joseph believed there were certain times when the treasures
could be obtained more easily than at other times: "The facility of approaching
them, depended in a great measure on the state of the moon. New moon and good
Friday, I believe, were regarded as the most favorable times for obtaining
these treasures."
On some occasions, Smith
made ANIMAL SACRIFICES to appease whatever spirits might be guarding
the buried treasure. Emily M. Austin recounted one time when Joseph told his
money-digging company "there was a charm on the pots of money, and if
some animal was killed and the blood sprinkled around the place, then they
could get it." Austin remembered: "So they KILLED A DOG and tried
this method of obtaining the precious metal.... Alas! how vivid was the
expectation when the blood of poor Tray [i.e., the dog] was used to take off
the charm, and after all to find their mistake ... and now they were obliged
to give up in despair."
Hiel Lewis, a cousin of
Joseph's wife, Emma, reported that the SACRIFICE of white dogs, black cats,
and other animals "was an indispensable part or appendage of the art
which Smith, the embryo prophet, was then practicing." Another
lie, but here’s the truth: Sacrifice is an indispensable part of the gospel
of Christ. In ancient times God required blood sacrifices, but this ended
with the great and last sacrifice – the infinite atonement of our Savior Jesus
Christ. Today the Lord only requires the sacrifice of a broken heart and
a contrite spirit. Sometimes, however, Joseph and his companions relied
solely on magical rituals and occult ceremonies. Consider the following incidents,
described by two different acquaintances of Joseph, Jr.:
Episode # 1:
"Joseph, Sen. first
made a circle, twelve or fourteen feet in diameter. This circle, said he,
contains the treasure. He then stuck in the ground a row of witch hazel sticks,
around the said circle, for the purpose of keeping off the evil spirits. Within
this circle he made another, of about eight or ten feet in diameter. He walked
around three times on the periphery of this last circle, muttering to himself
something which I could not understand. He next stuck a steel rod in the centre
of the circles, and then enjoined profound silence upon us, lest we should
arouse the evil spirit who had the charge of these treasures. After we had
dug a trench about five feet in depth around the rod.... [Joseph, Sr.] went
to the house to inquire of young Joseph the cause of our disappointment. He
soon returned and said, that Joseph had remained all this time in the house,
looking in his stone and watching the motions of the evil spirit that he saw
the spirit come up to the ring and as soon as it beheld the cone which we
had formed around the rod, it caused the money to sink."
Episode # 2:
"The sapient Joseph
discovered, northwest of my house a chest of gold watches; but as they were
in the possession of the evil spirit, it required skill and stratagem to obtain
them, Accordingly, orders were given to stick a parcel of large stakes in
the ground, several rods around, in a circular form.... over the spot where
the treasures were deposited... Samuel F. Lawrence, with a drawn sword in
his hand, marched around to guard any assault which his Satanic majesty might
be disposed to make. Meantime, the rest of the company were busily employed
in digging for the watches, They worked as usual till quite exhausted, But,
in spite of their defender, Lawrence, and their bulwark of stakes, the devil
came off victorious, and carried away the watches."
Both of these episodes ended unsuccessfully alter the treasure was either
stolen away or moved out of reach by demonic forces. Such outcomes were typical
in tales circulated by nineteenth-century money-diggers. style='color:red'>That’s all they were - tales circulated by nineteenth-century
money-diggers. In "The Refiner's Tire: The Making of Mormon Cosmology,
1644-1844", history professor John L. Brooke of Tufts University observes:
"One of the central themes in the treasure-hunting sagas was the volatility
of precious metal: chests of money `bloom' to the surface of the earth only
to fall away when the diggers utter a sound or violate a ritual practice."
Joshua Stafford remembered
Smith actually showing him "a piece of wood which he said he took from
a box of money" Not a box of money – The Book
of Mormon, one of the greatest treasures ever given to man. that had
mysteriously moved back into the hill. Many years later in Utah, two of Smith's
closest associates -- Martin Harris and Orrin Porter Rockwell -- actually
gave recollections of having been present when this corner of a wooden treasure
box was broken off before it "slipped back into the hill" under
the influence of some unseen power.
. . .
BOUND IN BAINBRIDGE
The transcript of Smith's
appearance in court was first published in 1873 in Fraser's Magazine (an English
periodical). During this preliminary hearing (then called an "examination"),
Joseph admitted that he possessed "a certain stone" that he occasionally
used to determine where treasures were hidden in the earth. The court record
continued: "[H]e professed to tell in this manner where gold mines were
a distance underground, and had looked for Mr. Stowell several times, and
had informed him where he could find these treasures." Stowell attempted
to defend Joseph, but ended up doing more harm than good by testifying that
he positively knew Smith could "tell, and did possess the art of seeing
those valuable treasures through the medium of said stone." He further
stated that he had the most implicit faith in Joseph's skills. After others
testified that they, too, had witnessed Smith's illegal activities, the court
pronounced him guilty.
What illegal
activities? Here are some more details on this trial: In March 1826, upon
the sworn complaint of one Peter Bridgeman, Joseph Smith was brought before
Justice of the Peace Albert Neely in South Bainbridge, New York, on the charge
of being a "disorderly person."
Perhaps Oliver
Cowdery, who was trained in the law and practiced that profession from 1837
until his death in 1848, had it just about right. He wrote in 1835, "While
in that country, some very officious person complained of him as a disorderly
person, and brought him before the authorities of the county; but there being
no cause of action he was honorably acquitted." (Messenger and Advocate
2 (October 1835): 201).
Joseph escaped jail time,
however, when the court subtly suggested he leave town and never return. This
common show of mercy, known at that time as "Leg Bail," may have
been granted because Smith was only twenty years old. In an 1831 letter to
the Evangelical Magazine and Gospel Advocate, Bainbridge resident A.W. Benton
recounted what he witnessed at Smith's trial: "[C]onsidering his youth,
(he then being a minor,) and thinking he might reform his conduct, he was
designedly allowed to escape. This was four or five years ago. From this time
he absented himself from this place, returning only privately, and holding
clandestine intercourse with his credulous dupes, for two or three years."
Joel K. Noble, a justice of the peace during that era, corroborated Benton's
account, stating: "Jo. was condemned. [The] Whisper came to Jo. 'off,
off' -- [He] took Leg Bail... Jo was not seen in our town for 2 years or more
(except in Dark Corners)."
For many years Mormons
steadfastly viewed all such statements, including the court transcript published
in 1873, as nothing but anti-Mormon propaganda created to smear the good name
of their prophet. In reference to the Bainbridge court record, for example,
LDS author Francis Kirkham adamantly declared "no such record was ever
made, and therefore, is not in existence." The LDS church-owned "Deseret
News" called it a "fabrication of unknown authorship and never in
the court records at all." Mormon apostle John Widtsoe stated: "This
alleged court record ... seems to be a literary attempt of an enemy to ridicule
Joseph Smith.... There is no existing proof that such a trial was ever held."
The reason for such ardent denials was articulated well by Dr. Hugh Nibley,
one of Mormonism's staunchest defenders. In 1967, he wrote: "If this
court record is authentic, it is the most damning evidence in existence against
Joseph Smith."
Then, in 1971, concrete
evidence for the transcript's validity was unearthed by Wesley P. Walters
and Fred Poffarl, two religion researchers who had been investigating Mormonism
for many years. While searching through court records stored in the basement
of an old county jail in New York, they discovered two cardboard boxes shoved
against a wall in a darkened corner. They contained bundles of water damaged
court bills dating back to the early 1800s. The 1826 bundle included several
bills showing court costs of a Justice Albert Neely. One of his cases referred
to none other that "Joseph Smith the Glass Looker." Neely's charges,
$2.68, exactly matched the figure given for court costs in Fraser's Magazine.
The date also was the same-March 20, 1826 (see photo, p. 45).
For many years Mormons
tried in vain to cast aspersions on the legitimacy of the Neely document.
But finally, in 1992, LDS church historian Leonard J. Arrington conceded that
the bill was indeed drawn up by Neely and that it referred to Smith "as
a `glass looker' (one who, by peering through a glass stone, could see things
not discernible by the natural eye)."
Interestingly, before
Neely's bill had surfaced, Francis Kirkham made a very telling comment based
on his complete confidence that no evidence would ever be found to substantiate
the 1826 trial: "If any evidence had been in existence that Joseph Smith
had used a seer stone for fraud and deception, and especially had he made
this confession in a court of law as early as 1826, or four years before the
Book of Mormon was printed, and this confession was in a court record, it
would have been impossible for him to have [legitimately] organized the restored
Church."
GOING FOR THE GOLD
After his 9826 brush with
the law, Smith temporarily seemed more interested in romance than in money-digging.
Even before his arrest, while continuing to hunt treasure for Stowell in New
York, Smith often returned to Pennsylvania to see Emma. But when he asked
for permission to marry her, it was refused. Her father remembers: "I
gave him my reasons for so doing; some of which were, that he was a stranger,
and followed a business that I could not approve: he then left the place."
Joe, however, would not take no for an answer, and on January 18, 1827, while
Isaac was away from home, he took Emma to New York and married her. Smith
apparently began pondering his financial situation around this same time,
realizing that money-digging alone was bringing in only about $14 a month,
which was not nearly enough to support a family. This guy just can’t stop talking about the false money-digging rumors.
So, at some point in
1826/27, Smith began telling others, most notably his money-digging friends,
about the existence of a golden book he would soon be retrieving from a
secret place that had been revealed to him through his seer stone. Smith originally attached no religious significance to the mysterious volume,
but instead, touted it as a book that would, according to neighbor Parley
Chase (b. 1806), "tell him how to get money that was buried in the ground."
In other words, it would compliment to his money-digging activities.
Abner Cole, a former justice
of the peace who became editor of the Palmyra Reflector, recalled a similar
explanation that came directly from young Joseph's father. His account provides
invaluable information that suggests how the whole series of stories involving
visions probably began:
"[T]he elder Smith
declared that his son Jo had seen the spirit, (which he then described as
a little old man with a long beard,) and was informed that he (Jo) under certain
circumstances, eventually should obtain great treasures (spiritual treasures – the gospel of Jesus Christ), and that in due time he (the spirit) would furnish him (Jo) with a book, which
would give an account of the Ancient inhabitants (antideluvians,) of this
country, and where they had deposited their substance, consisting of costly
furniture, &c.... which had ever since that time remained secure in his
(the spirit's) charge, in large and spacious chambers, in sundry places in
this vicinity."style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Verdana;'>
Eventually, however, Joseph
decided that instead of keeping the book as a means of finding more treasure,
it would be far more profitable to sell the volume as a speculation about
America's ancient inhabitants and their origins. style='color:red'>The biggest lie of them all. “I told the brethren that the
Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone
of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts,
than by any other book.” –Joseph Smith Neighbor Joseph Capron remembered
an especially enlightening conversation he had with Joseph, Sr., who never
even intimated that the volume would be religious:
[Joseph, Jr.] pretended
to find the Gold Plates. This scheme, he believed, would relieve the family
from all pecuniary embarrassment. His father told me, that when the book was
published, they would be enabled, from the profits of the work, to carry into
successful operation of the money digging business. He gave me no intimation,
at that time that the book was to be of a religious character, or that it
had any thing to do with revelation. He declared it to be a speculation, and
said he, "when it is completed, my family will be placed on a level above
the generality of mankind."style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Verdana;'> style='color:red'>If you have received of the Spirit of God during your perusal
of these words, you will have realized that many of these sources are neighbors
who despised the prophet Joseph. Being under the influence of Lucifer, the
father of all lies, naturally they follow suite.
But Joseph kept changing
his mind again and again, not only about the hidden book's contents, but also
about how he discovered its existence, and how he retrieved it. Another
lie. Read Joseph Smith-History in the Pearl of Great Price. Here you will
find truth concerning Joseph’s experiences. He could not keep his
story straight, nor could his siblings, or parents. Parley Chase recalled
that when it came to explaining exactly how the plates were found, the Smiths
"scarcely ever told two stories alike." In hindsight, some of
these accounts sound like a cross between Washington Irving's "The Legend
of Sleepy Hollow" (1819-20) and assorted pirate tales featuring the likes
of Captain Kidd (1645-1701), whom Joseph, interestingly enough, claimed to
have seen "sailing on the Susquehanna River" one day while gazing
into his peepstone. (He also said he saw where Kidd had buried "two pots
of gold and silver.")
Long before area residents
heard any of the "first" or "second" vision accounts thus
far discussed, a number of radically different explanations about the golden
plates had been circulated by the Smiths. On one occasion, Joseph, Jr.
told his wife's cousin, Hiel Lewis, that he learned about the golden plates
IN A DREAM, and that on his first attempt to get them in 1823, he was "knocked
down" several times by a mysterious power. Joseph then claimed to have
seen the ghost of a man "standing over the spot, who, to him appeared
like a Spaniard, having a long beard coming down over his breast to about
here, (Smith putting his hand to the pit of his stomach) WITH HIS (the ghost's)
THROAT CUT FROM EAR TO EAR, AND THE BLOOD STREAMING DOWN, who told him that
he could not get it [the plates] alone; that another person whom he, Smith,
would know at first sight, must come with him, and then he could get it"
(emphases in original). style='color:red'>In the Introduction to the Book of Mormon under the subtitle
“TESTIMONY OF THE PROPHET JOSEPH SMITH” he speaks of the actual visit of the
resurrected being, Moroni, who told him about the plates of Mormon. It was
not a dream. Moroni was not a ghost, but a resurrected man with a perfect,
glorified body (no blood, etc.). Joseph was told that “the time for bringing
them forth had not yet arrived, neither would it, until four years from that
time” (Joseph Smith). Fayette Lapham heard the same scenario from
Joseph, Sr. -- i.e., that the golden plates had been revealed to young Joseph
VIA A DREAM. And that during this dream "a very large and tall
man appeared to him, dressed in an ancient suit of clothes, and the clothes
were bloody." The gruesome apparition told
Joseph "there was a valuable treasure, buried many years since, and not
far from that place ... [and] he would direct him to the place where it was
deposited, in such a manner that he could obtain it." style='color:red'>Moroni’s body was perfect like the resurrected body of Christ.
Only Satan would call this gruesome. And now for the truth: The word of God
is valuable, it was buried many years earlier, it was not far from that place,
and Moroni did direct him to the place where it was deposited.
Lapham was then told the
rest of the story just as it had been related to Emma's cousin, including
the part about Joseph, Jr. being struck down and seeing the Spaniard appear
at the location. According to Joseph, Sr., the macabre ghost had been
"sworn to take charge of and protect that property, until the time
should arrive for it to be exhibited to the world of mankind; and, in order
to prevent his making a improper disclosure, he was murdered or slain on the
spot, and the treasure had been under his charge ever since. He said to him
[Joseph] that ... if he would come again one year from that time, he could
have them."
The Smiths eventually
changed Joseph's "dream" of a ghost to a "vision" of a
spirit (but not yet an angel). This version was told to Willard Chase. He
recalled that in June of 1827 Joseph Smith, Sr. related an astonishing story
that allegedly had been unfolding since 1823 (the same year now accepted by
Mormons as the time of Joseph's second vision). According to the elder
Smith, a "spirit" had appeared in a vision and communicated to his
son that "in a certain place there was a record on plates of gold, and
that he was the person that must obtain them." The spirit then instructed
young Joseph to go to this location on September 22, 1823, but to do so "dressed
in black clothes, and riding a black horse with a switch tail. Joseph was
then supposed to demand the book, using a special secret word, and after obtaining
plates, "go directly away, and neither lay it down nor look behind him."
Joseph was the person commissioned to obtain the plates,
but as I said before “the time for bringing them forth had not yet arrived,
neither would it, until four years from that time”
Joseph, Sr. informed Chase
that his son did in fact dress himself in a suit of black clothes and borrowed
a black horse. He journeyed to the hill and briefly retrieved the plates (in
1823) until they supernaturally flew back to where they had been. Apparently,
Joseph had placed them down to adjust the positioning of supplies on his horse,
which disobeyed the spirit's command to "go directly away." Consequently,
the plates slipped back into the hill. One fascinating addition to this particular
story involved an as yet unheard of toad-like creature that appeared when
Joseph tried to re-obtain the plates after they had deposited themselves back
into the hill. This entity "assumed the appearance of a man" and
struck Joseph on the side of his head, telling Joseph that it was not yet
time to retrieve the plates and that he would have to return in one year.
A subsequent version of
Smith's ever-changing tale, one sounding a bit more Christian, was related
to Martin Harris, who in turn told it to the Rochester Gem, which published
a synopsis of it:
"In the autumn of
1827 a man named Joseph Smith of Manchester, in Ontario County, said that
he had been visited by the spirit of the Almighty in a dream, and informed
that in a certain hill in that town, was deposited a Golden Bible, containing
an ancient record of a divine origin. He states that after a third visit from
the same spirit in a dream, he proceeded to the spot, removed earth, and there
found the bible, together with a huge pair of spectacles." style='color:red'>This is fairly close to the truth. The Urim and Thummim may
have looked similar to a pair of spectacles. Again, it was not a dream, but
the spirit of the Almighty certainly was present during Moroni’s visit with
Joseph that night.
Over the years these yarns
gradually were revised and expanded, eventually becoming today's official
account of the 1823 "second" vision featuring the angel Moroni.
One element of the earlier stories, however, did not easily give way. Until
well into the late 1800s it was widely understood that Smith found the golden
plates not by a dream, or a ghost, or a vision -- but by looking into his
peep-stone and seeing where they had been deposited. Orasmus Turner recalled
one day when Joseph was away from home, and his family inadvertently revealed
how he actually had found the plates, if indeed, there ever were any:
"[I]n his absence,
the rest of the family made a new version of it to one of their neighbors.
They spewed him such a pebble as may any day be picked up on the shore of
Lake Ontario .... They said it was by looking at this stone, in a hat, the
light excluded, that Joseph discovered the plates.... It was the same stone
the Smith's had used in money digging, and in some pretended discoveries of
stolen property."
This may have been the
most prevalent Mormon understanding of the events leading to the retrieval
of Smith's golden plates. Even Brigham Young, Smith's successor to the
LDS presidency, knew that Smith used his peep-stone to find the golden plates.
In 1856, Mormon pioneer Hosea Stout recorded in his diary that Young actually
"exhibited the Seer's stone with which the Prophet Joseph discovered
the plates of the Book of Mormon." Martin Harris, one of Smith's closest
allies and a crucial figure in the creation of the Book of Mormon, also testified
to the peep-stone's use:
"Joseph had a
stone which was dug from the well of Mason Chase.... It was by means of this
stone that he first discovered these plates.... [Joseph) had before described
the manner of his finding the plates. He found them by looking in the stone....
The family bad likewise told me the same thing." Again, the Lord did not permit the Urim and Thummim
to be used unrighteously.
No one will probably ever
know exactly how these earliest stories developed and merged. But one thing
is certain -- all of the religious aspects of Smith's adventures came much
later. style='color:red'>Lie. The first vision – the personal visitation of God the
Eternal Father and His Son Jesus Christ to Joseph Smith in 1820 is one of
the most significant religious experiences ever. Orasmus Turner wrote:
"The primitive designs of Mrs. Smith, her husband, Jo, and Cowdery, was
money-making; blended with which perhaps, was a desire for notoriety, to be
obtained by cheat and fraud. The idea of being the founders of a new sect,
was an after thought, in which they were aided by others." In agreement
with Turner, Joseph Smith's cousin-in-law, Hiel Lewis, summarized:
"In all this narrative,
there was not one word about 'visions of God,' or of angels or heavenly revelations.
All his information was by that dream, and that bleeding ghost. The heavenly
visions and messages of angels, etc., contained in Mormon books were after-thoughts,
revised to order."
Many of Joseph's doctrines
would end up fitting into this category of "afterthoughts" -- e.g.,
his revelations concerning God's nature, inhabitants on the moon, Caucasians
advancing to godhood, and the notion that Blacks, Indians, and other people
of color are cursed spirits (see Chapter Sixteen). Smith's most significant
"afterthought," however, would be his role as a latter-day prophet
commissioned to lead humanity into the glorious millennial kingdom of God.
But first he would have to decipher the mysterious writing on the Book of
Mormon plates, and offer his translation to the world.
THE ART OF TRANSLATING
After supposedly retrieving
the plates, Smith took extreme measures to avoid at all costs anyone who might
want to see them. The angel, according to Joseph, had warned him that he would
lose possession of the plates if he let anyone else see them. This certainly
convinced his family. But still troublesome to Joseph were the men associated
with his money-digging company. They felt that "they had as much right
to the plates as Joseph [did]" and that he had "been [a] traitor
and had appropriated to himself that which belonged to them."
Smith responded by hiding
the plates; first, in the hollow of a tree, then under the hearth of his house,
then under an old cooper's shop. As a result, few people, except for Joseph's
family and the money-diggers, even believed the golden book truly existed.
After all, no one had actually seen the plates, nor would anyone ever see
them. Yet another lie. At the front of the Book
of Mormon (in the Introduction), you will find “the testimony of three witnesses”
who beheld the plates of gold. Immediately following is “the testimony of
eight witnesses” who also testified that they saw the plates. (After
the plates were "translated," they were returned to the angel by
Smith, who claimed to have deposited them in a huge cave filled with treasure.)
But unbelievers were the
least of Joseph's problems. A far more pressing issue was his lack of funds
to carry out the God-given task of translating, then publishing, the Book
of Mormon. A solution to this problem came in the form of Martin Harris, a
prosperous farmer with considerable land. He also happened to be a religious
fanatic prone to visions and other supernatural phenomena. Angelic visitations,
ghostly encounters, and meetings with Jesus Christ were commonplace in Harris'
life.
On one occasion, Harris
told Stephen S. Harding that he "saw the devil, in all his hideousness,
on the road just before dark, near his farm, a little north of Palmyra."
This terrifying encounter began when his horses suddenly stopped: "[Harris]
then commenced smelling brimstone, and knew the Devil was in the road, and
saw him plainly as he walked up the hill and disappeared.... [Satan looked
like] 'a greyhound as big as a horse, without any tail, walking upright on
his hind legs.'" He told another gentleman in Palmyra that "while
the Book of Mormon translation was going on, that on the way [to Pennsylvania]
he met the Lord Jesus Christ, who walked along by the side of him in the shape
of a deer for two or three miles, talking with him as familiarly as one man
talks with another."
- - - - - -
Obviously, the Book of
Mormon and all of Mormonism ARE FRAUDULENT PRODUCTS OF AN OCCULT CON MAN!
- Martin
In the name of
Jesus Christ you know I speak the truth, Martin. I stand as testimony against
you.
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Click on Post Reply for HTML to display correctly Re: The LIES of Martin's post (my words in red) -- No Fear Top of thread Archive
Posted by: No Fear ®
10/02/2002, 07:47:50
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Otherwise, not all my words appear in red. Re: The LIES of Martin's post (my words in red) -- No Fear Top of thread Archive
Posted by: No Fear ®
10/02/2002, 07:51:08
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You are a pathetic liar, full of fear. Re: The LIES of Martin's post (my words in red) -- No Fear Top of thread Archive
Posted by: phishhead ®
10/02/2002, 08:25:59
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Your desperate attempt to refute Martin's post shows how scared you are of facing the truth. You are terrified of the idea that everything you have believed your whole life might be a lie. You offer no historical documentation to support any of your claims, other than quoting the standard works, while the claims of Martin have been verified by many independent sources. All you do is say "liar, liar, pants on fire!" and offer no effective counter-arguments. Your testimony convinces no one. All it does is reassure the reader that believing Mormons like yourself are irrational, illogical, and intellectually dishonest.
-phishhead
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One of the most clueless and vapid posts ever! Re: The LIES of Martin's post (my words in red) -- No Fear Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Martin ®
10/02/2002, 18:00:54
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You amusingly write: "At a young age we (members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints) are taught of the persecutions and false rumors that prevailed about the prophet Joseph in the northeastern US."You were lied to, of course! For obvious reasons: To keep you from learning the ugly truth! That is one of the most important responsibilities of the Mormon inculcators: To disseminate lies and half-truths covering up the true historical origins of your Church. For these things that are reported by Abines are documented historical facts, and the LDS Church is fiercely dedicated to trying to keep you from learning and believing these truths!
You then you make your ignorance obvious when you completely miss the point of the great majority of the post and foolishly write: "The ordinances performed are sacred before God. One of these sacred ordinances is baptism."
Do you even realize that you have not even understood the issue at all? The undeniable occult rituals and practices of Joseph Smith, Jr. and his family that are so compellingly documented in that book, AND MANY OTHER BOOKS, as hard, historical facts do NOT refer to the LDS "ordinances" or baptism!! What's wrong with your head? These first-hand witnesses AND JOSEPH SMITH, JR. HIMSELF IN HIS OWN SWORN TESTIMONY IN COURT are instead referring to various occult, folk magic practices such as money-digging, the use of seer stones (aka peepstones) to find buried pirate treasure and lost objects, ritual sacrifice of animals to ward off evil spirits, witchcraft (apparently so-called "white witchcraft"), divining rods, magical incantations and spells, etc.
All of these things the Smith family and Joseph Smith, Jr., are PROVEN to have been deeply involved in!
You then assert, quite ignorantly, that: "Possessors of the seer stones (“urim and thummim”) are what constituted seers in ancient days. God will not permit these stones to be used unrighteously."
If that were so, God would have smitten Joseph Smith, Jr.! There can be no doubt at all that he used his seer stones in his occult money-digging and in other occult practices, WHICH HE ADMITTED UNDER OATH IN HIS TRIAL!!
Then you foolishly allege: "Considering the fact that most of the Smith’s neighbors despised them, this source is not credible. There will be greatest opposition from Satan against the greatest truth."
Provide historical documentation which neighbors despised the Smiths and which ones did not during the early years in question or retract your unfounded accusation! Then provide evidence that people who dislike someone always lie about them. If anyone is a tool of Satan, you are! For is it not said that Satan is the author of all lies? And you have issued a great number of lies in your wretchedly dishonest and calumnious post!
Here's your next, clearly ignorant, comment: "Lucy Mack Smith especially (Joseph’s mother) was unsatisfied with the churches of their day and prayed that the true church would be revealed to her husband, Joseph Smith Sr."
What you again demonstrate massive ignorance, in this instance ignorance of the correct meaning of the phrase "spiritual realm" which, in the context in which it was used, is a reference to the occult quasi-religion of Spiritualism in which the dead are claimed to reveal themselves during seances!
You then go on to cite the so-called "History" allegedly by Joseph Smith, Jr. You are probably so ignorant of the true facts of your Church that you probably don't even know that Smith didn't write all of it in the first place, but more importantly, the book was EXTENSIVELY revised and redacted over and over and over again after its earlier publications! And your massive ignorance is yet again revealed in your total obliviousness to the fact that the "mining" scenario was deliberately FABRICATED in order that you would NOT LEARN THE TRUTH about your foul and wretched con man's actual life history!
What's more, it's ridiculous to cite your carefully expunged and whitewashed "scriptures" and other Church fabrications in order to try to refute the facts reported by Abanes, since the entire purpose of all this honest scholarship is to tell the TRUTH that has been deliberately hid from you and your fellow credulous believers!!
You then stupidly repeat your sophomorically stupid assertions to the effect that the MOUNTAINS of documentary evidence confirming these facts are actually lies. How can you live with yourself holding such puerile views?I am simply flabbergasted by your astonishing ignorance and terrible reading comprehension! You are, I'm afraid, a textbook example of all that is ignorant and intellectually dishonest about the average LDS member!
Your stupid, ignorant assertions about the moronic Moroni are of absolutely ZERO probative value. You are merely mindlessly parroting what you have been inculcated to mindlessly parrot!
You then stupidly interject: "William Stafford, a neighbor and fellow money-digger, stated that Joseph, Jr., used a seer stone not only to "see all things within and under the earth," but also to discover "the spirits in whose charge these treasures (spiritual treasures, like the Book of Mormon) were, clothed in ancient dress." Holy Bob, man: Why can't you read?? Stafford was a PARTNER in your so-called "prophet's" illegal occult money-digging schemes! He was unambiguously referring to buried PHYSICAL treasure, i.e., loot or swag!!
It really saddens me that the LDS Church can so obviously crush the intellectual honesty and curiosity out of one of its members so completely!
After a citation of Jesse Townsend that your so-called "prophet" used his seer stones to "see chests of money buried in the earth", in his illegal, occult money-digging scams, you then stupidly write: "Close – a chest with golden plates (The Book of Mormon). See how Satan twists the truth?" You then go on to call the historical facts, "lies".
Well, I see that you're thrilled to repeat the lies of your wretchedly dishonest Church, anyway. Whether Satan has anything to do with it beyond my ability to know, but it is clear that you have absolutely NOTHING credible to say. That you are frighteningly ignorant of the truth of the despicable career of crime and occult practices of your "prophet" is beyond doubt!
There is nothing worthy of any response in your stupidly ignorant flummery until you get to your mindless parroting of the official dogma of the LDS Church regarding the so-called "witnesses"...
It is manifestly clear and utterly indisputable that NO ONE (allegedly besides Smith himself) ever actually saw the alleged "gold plates" with their natural vision! The alleged "Three Witnesses" only report (and not consistently) that they had some kind of alleged mystical, allegedly supernatural "vision" in the woods of the alleged "gold plates" long after the alleged "gold plates" were allegedly taken away by the alleged Moroni!! The other alleged "Eight Witnesses" only saw what they were told were the alleged "gold plates" which were always underneath a cover so that they could not actually SEE the alleged "gold plates"!! Martin Harris, one of the alleged "Three Witnesses", even emphasized that none of the alleged "Eight Witnesses" ever saw the alleged "gold plates"!
Your ignorant, parroting blither is of absolutely ZERO value! Nowhere in your entire mindless, irrational, parroting post have you ever come anywhere near to providing any significant, credible evidence that the facts reported by Abanes are not accurate!
You moronically conclude your absolutely worthless post in which you couldn't even supply a hint of documentary evidence to rebut the overwhelming evidence of the foul criminal past of your foul criminal "prophet": "In the name of Jesus Christ you know I speak the truth, Martin. I stand as testimony against you."
I know only that your miserably vapid and mush-headed post demonstrated nothing besides your amazing ignorance of the truth about Joseph Smith, Jr.
You are PROOF of the enormously contemptible LIES and DECEPTION and COVERUPS of your vile Church and their abject TERROR of honest history!
- - - -
I repeat:You implied the following person was a liar and tool of Satan:
Joseph Smith, Jr. (admitted in court that he used "a certain stone" in his occult money-digging to seek buried treasures. Reported to multiple witnesses his claim of "the existence of a golden book he would soon be retrieving from a secret place that had been revealed to him through his seer stone." Claimed to have observed the ghost of Captain Kidd "sailing on the Susquehanna River" using his occult peepstone. Told his wife's cousin, Hiel Lewis, that he learned about the "golden plates" in a dream rather than a vision. Claimed to have seen the ghost of a bloody Spaniard with his throat cut guarding the alleged "golden plates".)
You implied the following person was a liar and tool of Satan:Joseph Smith, Sr. (well-known occultist and money-digger. Claimed to witnesses that the ostensible "golden book" his son spoke of had nothing whatsoever to do with anything religious but was claimed instead to tell of buried treasure. Also insisted that his son's dream/vision regarding said "golden book" was not of any religious figures but was instead of little old man with a long beard who told his son that the "golden book" would also contain story of ancient American inhabitants.)
You implied the following person was a liar and tool of Satan:Martin Harris (devoted follower of Joseph Smith, Jr., who sold his farm to pay for the first publication of the Book of Mormon.)
You implied the following person was a liar and tool of Satan:Brigham Young (who steadfastly insisted that Jos. Smith, Jr., used his peepstone to find alleged "gold plates", in DIRECT CONTRADICTION of later official LDS untruths and misrepresentations.)
You implied the following person was a liar and tool of Satan:Hosea Stout (famous Mormon leader. Emphasized along with Brigham Young that Jos. Smith, Jr. discovered alleged "gold plates" by use of his money-digging peepstone and did not learn its location from vision of any kind and that discovery did not involve any religious figures.)
You implied the following person was a liar and tool of Satan:Rev. John Sherer (reported Jos. Smith, Jr's occult practices, including his occult use of seer stone and also reported that Smith was a fraudulent con man.)
You implied the following person was a liar and tool of Satan:Fayette Lapham (neighbor of the Smiths and witness to their occult practices and money-digging. Reported that Jos. Smith, Jr. emphasized that the ostensible "golden book" was raveled to him in a dream rather than a vision, and was guarded by a ghost of a Spaniard with bloody clothes.)
You implied the following person was a liar and tool of Satan:Josiah Stowel (partner of Jos. Smith, Jr., who testified in his defense at Smith's money-digging trial, of which even the LDS apologists admit Smith was convicted.)
You implied the following person was a liar and tool of Satan:Joshua Stafford (acquaintance of the Smiths and witness to their occult practices and money-digging.)
You implied the following person was a liar and tool of Satan:Reporter(s) and editor(s) of the newspaper Palmyra Reflector (who reported the Smiths' extensive occult practices and money-digging.)
You implied the following person was a liar and tool of Satan:William Stafford (neighbor and fellow money-digger with the Smiths who reported Jos. Smith, Jr's use of seer stones for occult purposes. Submitted legal affidavit regarding Smith's and his family's infamous occult and white magic practices and money-digging.)
You implied the following person was a liar and tool of Satan:Jesse Townsend (reported Smiths' occult practices.)
You implied the following person was a liar and tool of Satan:Joseph Capron (neighbor of the Smiths. Reported Smiths' occult practices, particularly including Jos. Smith, Jr's occult use of seer stone in hat -- precisely how Smith "located" and "translated" the BoM from the alleged "gold book".)
You implied the following person was a liar and tool of Satan:Emily M. Austin (reported Smiths' occult practices, particularly including Jos. Smith Jr's bloody, occult animal sacrifices to ward off evil spirits in money-digging activities.)
You implied the following person was a liar and tool of Satan:Hiel Lewis (cousin of Joseph's wife, Emma. Reported Jos. Smith, Jr's occult practices, particularly including his bloody, occult animal sacrifices to ward off evil spirits in money-digging activities.)
You implied the following person was a liar and tool of Satan:Fraser's Magazine (which published the transcript of Smith's trial and conviction for fraudulent, occult money-digging.)
You implied the following person was a liar and tool of Satan:A.W. Benton (witness to Jos. Smith, Jr's trial and conviction for fraudulent, occult money-digging.)
You implied the following person was a liar and tool of Satan:Joel K. Noble (Justice of the Peace, witness to Jos. Smith, Jr's trial and conviction for fraudulent, occult money-digging.)
You implied the following person was a liar and tool of Satan:Wesley P. Walters (religion researcher who discovered concrete evidence of the truth of the trial transcript of Jos. Smith, Jr's trial and conviction for fraudulent, occult money-digging.)
You implied the following person was a liar and tool of Satan:Fred Poffarl (religion researcher who discovered concrete evidence of the truth of the trial transcript of Jos. Smith, Jr's trial and conviction for fraudulent, occult money-digging.)
You implied the following person was a liar and tool of Satan:Justice Albert Neely (Trial Judge who proceeded over Jos. Smith, Jr's trial and conviction for fraudulent, occult money-digging.)
You implied the following person was a liar and tool of Satan:Leonard J. Arrington (LDS church historian who admitted that the evidence discovered by Walters and Poffarl was legitimate and validated the trial transcript of Jos. Smith, Jr's trial and conviction for fraudulent, occult money-digging.)
You implied the following person was a liar and tool of Satan:Parley Chase (neighbor of the Smiths. Witness and reporter of Jos. Smith, Jr's claim that the ostensible "golden book" had nothing whatsoever to do with anything religious but was claimed by Smith instead to tell of buried treasure. Reported that the Smiths "scarcely ever told two stories alike.")
You implied the following person was a liar and tool of Satan:Abner Cole (Justice of the Peace and editor of Palmyra Reflector. Reported Jos. Smith, Jr's claim that the ostensible "golden book" had nothing whatsoever to do with anything religious but was claimed by Smith instead to tell of buried treasure. Also reported that Jos. Smith, Sr. insisted that his son's dream/vision was not of any religious figures but was instead of little old man with a long beard who told his son that the "golden book" would also contain story of ancient American inhabitants.)
You implied the following person was a liar and tool of Satan:Willard Chase (was told a somewhat different version of the story in which Smith claimed he learned of the alleged "golden book" from a ghost rather than a dream or vision. Claimed he had to try to retrieve said book "dressed in black clothes, and riding a black horse with a switch tail" and say a secret word.)
You implied the following person was a liar and tool of Satan:Orasmus Turner (reported that he was told by the Smiths that Jos., Jr. used his occult, money-digging peepstone to find alleged "gold plates".)
Please provide documentary evidence to validate your accusations. How many others are you going to call liars and Satan's tools, Mr. Full of Fear of the Truth?
- Martin
Modified by Martin at Wed, Oct 02, 2002, 18:14:47
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I rest my case! Pearls before swine. Re: The LIES of Martin's post (my words in red) -- No Fear Top of thread Archive
Posted by: No Fear ®
10/03/2002, 03:09:34
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Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.
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Re: I rest my case! Pearls before swine. Re: I rest my case! Pearls before swine. -- No Fear Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Lance ®
10/03/2002, 05:34:08
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Amen! Re: Re: I rest my case! Pearls before swine. -- Lance Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Martin ®
10/03/2002, 17:44:55
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What a waste!
It's hard to imagine anyone providing a less meaningful and relevant reply. The "pearls" are clearly Abanes', and it should be obvious who best fits the role of "swine".
- Martin
Modified by Martin at Thu, Oct 03, 2002, 17:45:14
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Re: Amen! Re: Amen! -- Martin Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Lance ®
10/04/2002, 02:05:12
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To whom else shall you go? Re: I do need to repent... -- No Fear Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Martin ®
09/28/2002, 18:59:13
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- Martin
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YOU are the one who should repent! Re: Re: Reflections of an Apostate Mormon -- No Fear Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Martin ®
09/28/2002, 18:55:19
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Repent your bigotted, racist religion and atone for your sins by refusing to be a part of it any longer like the wise and loving and above all HONEST Lance!
- Martin
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Re: YOU are the one who should repent! Re: YOU are the one who should repent! -- Martin Top of thread Archive
Posted by: No Fear ®
09/29/2002, 04:55:05
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to clarify things a bit... Re: Re: YOU are the one who should repent! -- No Fear Top of thread Archive
Posted by: No Fear ®
09/30/2002, 07:35:48
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Remember that Christ said the same thing to Simon Peter in Matthew 16:
21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.
22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.
23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.
He said these words to Peter because He loved him.
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Re: to clarify things a bit... Re: to clarify things a bit... -- No Fear Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Cal ®
09/30/2002, 12:01:35
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At any rate, I'm starting to doubt you're sincere. Maybe you're a troll. Maybe that's already been established here. I can't read everything. So one last question: Are you sincere or just having fun?
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Obviously you don't understand my posts... Re: Re: to clarify things a bit... -- Cal Top of thread Archive
Posted by: No Fear ®
10/01/2002, 09:47:40
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I'm trying to teach you all that the ultimate source of truth is not from books. It is from God himself, through the Holy Spirit. The heavens are not shut!
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Obviously you don't understand my posts... Re: Obviously you don't understand my posts... -- No Fear Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Craig C. ®
10/01/2002, 10:23:26
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How do you know that your Revelations from God are not simply your own brain talking to itself and creating the emotional confirmation you desire?
What makes your Revelations more trustworthy than Revelations received by followers of David Koresh or members of Heaven's Gate or fundamentalist Muslims promoting jihad?
Craig
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Mr. Full of Fear obviously can't answer you! Re: Obviously you don't understand my posts... -- Craig C. Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Martin ®
10/03/2002, 20:29:13
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It's so sad.
- Martin
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As I responded below... Re: Obviously you don't understand my posts... -- Craig C. Top of thread Archive
Posted by: No Fear ®
10/04/2002, 02:07:25
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Re: As I responded below... Re: As I responded below... -- No Fear Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Lance ®
10/04/2002, 02:14:33
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Humorous 'Mistakes' the Spirit Makes Re: As I responded below... -- No Fear Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Lance ®
10/04/2002, 02:32:42
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We were knocking doors one evening and a man opened up his door, but left his outer, partially-screened door closed. This meant that we could see him from only the middle of his chest upward. He wasn't wearing a shirt. I promptly began my introductory spiel (Buenas noches, senor! Somos misioneros de la Iglesia de JesuCristo do los Santos de los Ultimos Dias y tenemos un mensaje muuuuuy importante de Taco Bell esas Chalupas son deliciosas... etc. etc.). While I talked, he smiled widely at us. Immediately upon finishing my spiel, I looked at that smile and watched him reach out with his hand (only one hand was visible) to open his screen door and allow us entrance to his home. In that moment I had an overpowering spiritual experience. The Spirit basically washed over and through me, testifying to me powerfully that this man was a definite lost sheep finding his way back to the one true fold of sheep.
That feeling quickly dissipated as he opened his screen door and we saw that he had no pants on, and what he'd been doing with his other hand while I'd been talking and he'd been grinning at us.
Needless to say, we abruptly ended the contact and moved on.
Modified by Lance at Fri, Oct 04, 2002, 02:34:03
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The Spirit does not make mistakes, we do. Re: Humorous 'Mistakes' the Spirit Makes -- Lance Top of thread Archive
Posted by: No Fear ®
10/06/2002, 02:44:39
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PS Did you testify about Taco Bell on your mission? No wonder you didn't have a very good experience.
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Re: The Spirit does not make mistakes, we do. Re: The Spirit does not make mistakes, we do. -- No Fear Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Lance ®
10/06/2002, 06:14:59
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More of that goold old fashioned Mormon guilt tripping, which I alluded to extensively in the post which started this thread.
Prove to me that the Spirit isn't a liar, or that it exists at all.
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Oh Yes... Re: Re: The Spirit does not make mistakes, we do. -- Lance Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Lance ®
10/06/2002, 06:16:37
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Re: The Spirit does not make mistakes, we do. Re: Re: The Spirit does not make mistakes, we do. -- Lance Top of thread Archive
Posted by: nofaith ®
10/06/2002, 07:32:41
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Clearly, it was not the Spirit, but you, who erred. The Spirit is perfect, and can't make mistakes. This will help you to differentiate between the Spirit and your own, mortal musings. When your impressions are wrong, the feeling did not come from the Spirit. When they are right, the feeling did come from the Spirit (or at least it could have).
This is an excellent criteria for differentiating between the Spirit's impressions and your own thoughts. It also happens to be self validating! As long as you interpret all of the incorrect impressions as not coming from the Spirit, the Spirit will never be wrong! Isn't it awesome?
Now that I'm done being sarcastic, let me repeat: it was you who erred, Lance. You erred in believing your impression came from the Spirit. You erred even more in believing such a thing was possible. The 'Spirit,' if you believe in it, couldn't have been at fault, because by definition it can't give incorrect impressions. Therefore, No Fear is right on the money in blaming you. Who else can he blame? It clearly was your incorrect impression that fooled you.
Unfortunately, the phenomenon of the 'Spirit' can just as easily exist without an actual 'Spirit,' which I imagine was the point of your original post. But you must agree that either way, it's not the Spirit that makes the mistakes--it's us. Of course, I believe it's also us when we get it right...
:) Dan
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Question No Fear Re: Obviously you don't understand my posts... -- No Fear Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Jersey Girl ®
10/01/2002, 10:55:06
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What is the testimony that you bear?
Vicki
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Re: Question No Fear Re: Question No Fear -- Jersey Girl Top of thread Archive
Posted by: No Fear ®
10/02/2002, 05:27:24
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Re: Question No Fear Re: Re: Question No Fear -- No Fear Top of thread Archive
Posted by: nofaith ®
10/02/2002, 06:36:00
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Are you stating that you know for fact that those articles are true? If so, say so. Will you give testimony (e.g., relate your experience) that explains how you know.
It is a misuse of the word "testimony" in the general sense to simply state your beliefs. A testimony is a declaration of facts that one personally can attest to.
So, let's have it!
-Dan
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Re: Question No Fear Re: Re: Question No Fear -- nofaith Top of thread Archive
Posted by: No Fear ®
10/02/2002, 08:11:28
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I know for fact that the Articles of Faith are true! How do I know? - by the power of the Holy Ghost. Period. Oh ye of little faith!
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Re: Question No Fear Re: Re: Question No Fear -- No Fear Top of thread Archive
Posted by: nofaith ®
10/02/2002, 09:11:13
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-Dan
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No Fear, Nothing Personal Re: Re: Question No Fear -- No Fear Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Jersey Girl ®
10/02/2002, 10:00:42
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When a Christian offers testimony they typically "testify" to the way they feel that God has worked in their life. They offer personal "evidence" to that effect.An answer to prayer (not always a "yes"), an unexpected turn of events that brought about thankfulness, correction, conviction, life changing circumstances, these kinds of expressions or accounts that demonstrate personal impact.
Paul's conversion on the road to Damascus, for example, is a scriptural account of life changing testimony. There are many more.
When a LDS offers testimony, we hear something very different. Here, you have provided a link to the Articles of Faith which, in my view, does not constitute testimony but church liturgy. Do you see the difference?
Do you not feel that spirituality is personal? Why the cookie-cutter response? It is as if someone xeroxed the Articles of Faith and said..."here if anyone asks you for your testimony read this to them. Better yet, memorize it and recite it." What if I were to answer your request for my testimony by providing a link to the Southern Baptist Faith and Message? That isn't testimony, it's sharing the doctrine of the SB church. Are you not taught to testify of God on a personal level? To think and believe for yourself?
Vicki
Modified by Jersey Girl at Wed, Oct 02, 2002, 10:04:10
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Re: No Fear, Nothing Personal Re: No Fear, Nothing Personal -- Jersey Girl Top of thread Archive
Posted by: No Fear ®
10/03/2002, 03:39:37
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I have spiritual experiences daily that confirm my belief in Jesus Christ and His kingdom on earth. I have performed miracles, such as healing the sick, by the power of the Melchizedek priesthood. I have had visions (only a couple) from on high. Our mutual father in heaven has revealed the future to me on many occasions. These are gifts of the Spirit.There, I shared some personal experiences that have actually taken place in my life. I expect some of you will trample these words under your feet as you have with my response to Martin's post. Nevertheless, the words I have spoken are true.
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Re: No Fear, Nothing Personal Re: No Fear, Nothing Personal -- Jersey Girl Top of thread Archive
Posted by: fer-de-lance ®
10/03/2002, 08:28:53
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I thought you said you had been to LDS meetings? If you havn't, go to a testimony meeting sometime; it's all about personal life changing experiences and feelings. In fact, I'm really surprised you've missed that, because one of the very typical reborn arguments against the LDS testimony is that it is based on "feelings".
Now it appears that "no fear" has trumped the typical god-in-my-life stories, he's actually healed the sick and had visions. Have you ever had a vision?
Modified by fer-de-lance at Thu, Oct 03, 2002, 08:31:05
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Re: No Fear, Nothing Personal Re: Re: No Fear, Nothing Personal -- fer-de-lance Top of thread Archive
Posted by: No Fear ®
10/03/2002, 15:25:48
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Re: No Fear, Nothing Personal Re: Re: No Fear, Nothing Personal -- No Fear Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Martin ®
10/03/2002, 17:54:18
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As I've said previously, it seems clear that your lackluster critical reading and comprehension skills have contributed greatly to your personal belief system.
- Martin
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I'm not sure many LDS would like your posts Re: Obviously you don't understand my posts... -- No Fear Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Cal ®
10/01/2002, 13:31:44
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That's the question, and just referring us back to the Lord's witness to the restoration doesn't help very much to resolve it.
You need, at minimum, to explain away some reasons for disbelieving these sorts of experiences. Like the fact that others who think they directly receive revelations from God have come up with ideas that run counter to Mormon ideas. Why are they wrong? How do you know? Is your sense of belief, borne of spiritual experiences, infallible? Is it possible for you to be wrong? Is there anything that could convince you that something you believe is wrong even though you think the Spirit whispered it to you? If so, how would you ultimately notice that you're wrong?
Look, there have been plenty of Mormons I've known--some were devout LDS teachers of mine, others are in my family--who are willing to offer more than what you've said. These are LDS folk who'd actually feel a little bit leery of your self-assurance. They at least know that what looks like a powerful spiritual experience could still be mistaken. And they have ways at least of trying to explain away, say, spiritual experiences of tremendous power that support Catholicism, for example. They don't just return to the idea that if I felt the Spirit then I'd know what they know. They know that spiritual experiences can be misleading, and they add something more to the picture. You don't, and it's hard to take you seriously because of that.
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the Spirit Re: I'm not sure many LDS would like your posts -- Cal Top of thread Archive
Posted by: No Fear ®
10/02/2002, 05:22:30
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While I believe that doctrinal explanations will not convince, when one resists the Spirit of God, I will give some explanation to the truth and lies in the words Martin posted earlier in this thread.
Have a great day.
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The terror you represent Re: the Spirit -- No Fear Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Martin ®
10/03/2002, 18:11:26
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Your post represents an exemplary cautionary tale of how easily one's emotions can utterly vanquish one's honest, curious, questioning mind via emotionally driven self-delusions arising from vague "religious" feelings. It is the stuff of true tragedy.
You plainly revealed the utterly self-delusionary origin of your religious convictions when you wrote: "The language of the Spirit cannot be learned in a day. However, through constant nourishment from the pure word of God, I have come to know the difference between the Spirit and my own imaginations well."
So sad. So very, very sad. You and those like you (and I am emphatically not just speaking of fundamentalist Mormons), who lack any appreciable wisdom, insight, and genuine curiosity will one day be the ruin of our culture, species, and planet. I fear you, your ilk, and your deliberate ignorance far more than I fear anything else.
- Martin
Modified by Martin at Thu, Oct 03, 2002, 18:12:14
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I would like to add a few words... Re: I'm not sure many LDS would like your posts -- Cal Top of thread Archive
Posted by: No Fear ®
10/03/2002, 04:00:54
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"I have spiritual experiences daily that confirm my belief in Jesus Christ and His kingdom on earth. I have performed miracles, such as healing the sick, by the power of the Melchizedek priesthood. I have had visions (only a couple) from on high. Our mutual father in heaven has revealed the future to me on many occasions. These are gifts of the Spirit.
There, I shared some personal experiences that have actually taken place in my life. I expect some of you will trample these words under your feet as you have with my response to Martin's post. Nevertheless, the words I have spoken are true."
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What's more likely among these alternatives? Re: I would like to add a few words... -- No Fear Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Cal ®
10/03/2002, 11:20:31
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Have you wondered about believers from the Catholic, or Eastern Orthodox, or Pentecostal traditions who themselves have had experiences of healing the sick or exorcizing evil? Who've felt that God spoke to them daily through spiritual experiences, revealing not only the future to them but also the truth of the branch of Christianity that they've come to believe?
These are very common human experiences, and the vast majority of them over the course of human history have not supported a Mormon view of things.
At any rate, what's more likely: That your experiences reflect the truth about salvation and God's will for the world? Or that some other candidate faith amongst the vast majority of non-Mormon believers has had those experiences--just like yours--that reflect the truth?
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Re: What's more likely among these alternatives? Re: What's more likely among these alternatives? -- Cal Top of thread Archive
Posted by: No Fear ®
10/03/2002, 15:07:05
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"And after having received the record of the Nephites, yea, even my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., might have power to translate through the mercy of God, by the power of God, the Book of Mormon. And also those to whom these commandments were given, might have power to lay the foundation of this church, and to bring it forth out of obscurity and out of darkness, the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth, with which I, the Lord, am well pleased, speaking unto the church collectively and not individually—"
(Doctrine and Covenants 1:29,30)He also told Joseph Smith none of the existing churches were true when He and his father appeared to Joseph in the sacred grove in 1820. During that visit, Joseph was told the fullness of the gospel would be restored through him. If God told a person of another denomination that their church is the only true church, He would cease to be God.
You are mistaken in believing that these experiences - if they are of God - do not support the "Mormon" view of things. The "Mormon" view of things was first taught to Adam. Actually, the "Mormon" view of things had no beginning and will have no end, because the "Mormon" view of things is nothing less than the fullness of the gospel of Jesus Christ.
Every divine blessing ever received, no matter the receiver and his or her religious affiliation, is from the same source and the same gospel. All good religions in the world, whether they be Christian or not, have a portion of the truth. If they are obedient to this portion of the gospel, they will be blessed accordingly. "There is a law upon which every blessing is predicated." The more heed we give to the law of God, the greater the blessings. To him that receiveth, more is given. To those who are truly humble and faithful will be given the fullness of the gospel. So, yes, I believe those of other faiths may have profound spiritual experiences and perform miracles, but only as they follow the principles of the gospel of Jesus Christ (perhaps unknowingly) as taught in the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth. Remember, though, that because they are only obeying a portion of the law of God, they will only receive that portion of blessings from God.Cal, you may remember that retention of a testimony is dependent upon constant nourishment by the word of God. You know: pray always, read your scriptures daily, and attend church. Do this again and the seed of faith will once again spring forth in your soul. There will be no mistake in your heart and mind that you are feeling the Holy Ghost. You will doubt no more, because the truth of God will dwell in your heart. Cal, you seem to be asking the same thing in your posts in different ways. It all comes down to you humbling yourself before the Lord and receiving the Spirit. By the power of the Holy Ghost, ye may know the truth of all things. It's that simple, but certainly not easy. He will test your faith, as he has been. Then, in one instant, you will know.
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The LDS Church: A Rare Empirical Theology Re: Re: What's more likely among these alternatives? -- No Fear Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Martin ®
10/03/2002, 18:33:41
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Unlike nearly ALL other religions, the one Joseph Smith, Jr. invented from his imagination, plagiarism of long stretches of the KJV complete with humiliating translation errors, and from popular fad (but false) beliefs of his time and place regarding the alleged ancient inhabitants of the Americas, significantly included a vast number of empirical claims. As such, Smith (perhaps unwittingly) placed his religion well within the sphere of empirical investigation and potential disconfirmation.
Such disconfirmation is effectively complete. The LDS Church has utterly lost its struggle with science.
We know for a scientific FACT that there never were any Nephites, else we would have at least some credible evidence of their existence and of all the plants, animals, and technology the BoM reports were present in the Americas at the time in question. It is now simply undeniable that the Book of Mormon is fraudulent and makes claims which we know for a fact are FALSE.
To deny this is simply not scientifically feasible or credible. You must choose between science and reason on the one hand and your religion on the other (although I well know that you and your ilk will eagerly abandon science and reason, as you and your co-religionists have done all along).
So, since there can be NO QUESTION AT ALL that the Book of Mormon is fraudulent and that the Nephites NEVER existed, there is absolutely NO salvaging of your delusionary, fraudulent religion. Jesus, even if he was ever present on Earth, simply did NOT speak the words your convicted fraud of a "prophet" claimed he did.
- Martin
Modified by Martin at Thu, Oct 03, 2002, 18:35:48
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The Book of Mormon as inspired fiction Re: The LDS Church: A Rare Empirical Theology -- Martin Top of thread Archive
Posted by: phishhead ®
10/04/2002, 07:32:14
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How would you respond to liberal LDS who view the Book of Mormon as inspired fiction? For them, it doesn't matter whether or not the Nephites were historical or not. What matters is the message. They argue that the Book of Mormon is just as valuable when viewed as myth, because it still conveys important spiritual teachings. Furthermore, some of these liberals will argue that it doesn't matter that Joseph Smith presented it as actual history, because that was in fact necessary to get people to accept the message behind the story. They admit that the gold plates never literally existed, but they did exist somehow on a spiritual plane.
I know all this may sound crazy, but it is a school of thought that seems to be taking hold among many "Sunstone Mormons." It is also a view that I transitioned to before leaving the church all together. Any thoughts?
-phishhead
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Re: The Book of Mormon as inspired fiction Re: The Book of Mormon as inspired fiction -- phishhead Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Martin ®
10/04/2002, 14:56:40
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I hope you will forgive a brief and direct answer. My view is that once one starts allowing fiction (however "divine" or "divinely inspired" one may feel it to be) or even half-truths to provide "revelation" or support social or religious authority -- especially material which is contradicted by historical and/or scientific fact -- you're doomed. Nothing can salvage the situation, and you will be henceforth committed to fighting history and science while simultaneously combatting (perhaps quite literally) truth by labeling it "lies" and/or "heresy".
Respectfully,- Martin
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Re: The Book of Mormon as inspired fiction Re: Re: The Book of Mormon as inspired fiction -- Martin Top of thread Archive
Posted by: phishhead ®
10/04/2002, 16:07:13
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I hope you will forgive a brief and direct answer. My view is that once one starts allowing fiction (however "divine" or "divinely inspired" one may feel it to be) or even half-truths to provide "revelation" or support social or religious authority -- especially material which is contradicted by historical and/or scientific fact -- you're doomed. Nothing can salvage the situation, and you will be henceforth committed to fighting history and science while simultaneously combatting (perhaps quite literally) truth by labeling it "lies" and/or "heresy".
You need not ask my forgiveness for such a response. I would just like to comment - I find it unfortunate that LDS are programmed early in their youth into developing their own spiritual experiences before they are exposed to any scientific study. In primary, Mormon children sing songs like Follow the Prophet, which teaches them to blindly follow the leader of the church, as well as accept past prophets as real figures.By the time Mormons are old enough to form a rational argument against their religion, they have had enough "warm-fuzzy feelings" to convince them seemingly beyond repair that their religion is of God. As for the few thoughtful LDS that have accepted the possibility of the Book of Mormon being fiction but still inspired by God, I would not say these people are are "doomed." Rather, they are far more advanced than the scriptural literalist, because at least they are willing to change their mind about part of Mormonism.
For me at least, the only possible way to progress beyond the confinements of Mormonism was little by little. As a thoughtful believer, I was willing to read literature that challenged the historicity of the Book of Mormon but still argued that it was inspired from God. This was much less threatening than an anti-Mormon book whose sole intent is to disprove The BoM, and hence, Mormonism. That is why I like to recommend New Approaches to the Book of Mormon to believers. The authors of this book do a great job showing the problems with the historicity of the Book of Mormon, while either supporting the possibility of inspiration or avoiding the subject. The New Approaches book as well as the general idea of the Book of Mormon as inspired fiction represent a stepping stone in the right direction towards accepting truth; they represent at least some intellectual progress.
-phishhead
Modified by phishhead at Fri, Oct 04, 2002, 16:10:41
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Sounds like a painful experience Re: Reflections of an Apostate Mormon -- Lance Top of thread Archive
Posted by: James ®
09/28/2002, 10:51:16
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Well, the most striking thing is the quotas, that sounds very very abusive. But also the constant "your not worthy enough". But also that they were not willing to assist you when you really needed some help. Perhaps the LDS church should invest in some health coverage for its misssionaries if they really care for their health and well being of its represenatitives. Sure the missionary should contribute when possible,but it certainly would feel better if they showed some sort of investment on an organizational level.
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One of the finest posts I have ever read! Re: Reflections of an Apostate Mormon -- Lance Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Martin ®
09/28/2002, 18:02:49
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Your wise, insightful, incredibly honest and carefully crafted post is absolutely magnificent-- one of the finest I have ever had the sublime pleasure to read!
Your tale is a vitally important one and should be required reading in every Mormon ward in the world.
Thank you so very, very much for sharing it with us! Your remarkable candor and self-insight bespeaks a person of tremendous moral and intellectual honesty, courage and strength. It really moved me.
Some people wonder where all the heroes have gone. Thank you so very much for once again reminding us that they remain within our very midst!
With enormous respect and admiration,- Martin
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Re: One of the finest posts I have ever read! Re: One of the finest posts I have ever read! -- Martin Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Lance ®
09/29/2002, 01:15:27
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You should know that I actually admire you very much, Martin, and have been reading your posts here with interest for some time. Though I mostly lurk and only come out to post in brief little spurts occasionally, I have encountered you before a long time ago on these message boards, though you may not remember. As I recall, we were doing some joking about space travel from Earth to Kolob, and the speed of light barrier.
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