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Posted by: Jersey Girl ® 08/22/2002, 07:14:16 Author Profile Mail author |
Hi folks, This post will be completley opinion based and stems from the convergence of several things going on around me at once. Some up here in cyberspace and some that just came up recently on the ground the other night. I do not claim to speak for all believers, I wish to speak only for myself. I'm typing with paint on my hands since I just got in from work but I'm afraid if I don't get this up right now the ideas will fade and it's important to me that I do it now for other reasons that I hope will be apparent. Maybe it was an epiphany of sorts. I think that one of the reasons some people choose to believe in an after life is due to a human desire to live in a "world" where there is no suffering or illness. A person may long for a whole body, a whole mind or a life that doesn't carry so much burden. I met someone the other night who is overwhelmed (as I once was) and they spoke of their prayer life. They were in need of relief. God, I know it like I know my name. Some believers speak of finding their "reward" in heaven for their faith and/or their works. It's kind of hard to separate the two. Some must believe there is a hierarchy in heaven then. If you score a certain amount of points you get to point a, etc. If there is a hierarchy I don't think that either my faith or my works would get me the price of admission into the upper echelons of heaven. I'd count myself blessed to be given a safe corner to occupy for eternity! Anyway, I guess what I want to say is that while some of us are striving toward "the goal" (the hierarchy or the corner) we shouldn't forget how important it is to strive in this life. And use the struggle we have to facilitate the striving toward developing ourselves, our talents and skills while we are here. And trying to do some good with it. And if we are somehow more able, to offer our assistance to someone who is not. I get so stuck on minor and petty things sometimes that my focus becomes turned completely inward. I am sure that pride is a main factor in that. Then I realize how much time I wasted being stuck and not letting go of the small stuff. The other night I met someone who was the reflection of me several years ago. And I immediately saw myself in her so much so that when she cried that I got a lump in my own throat. She is so overwhelmed by what's on top of her. And like I said above, she spoke of her faith and of her prayer life. I know exactly where she was coming from. There were days when if I didn't have faith, I would have driven my car off the road. I thought of doing so several times. I don't know for a fact that there is a God who answers our prayers or is going to answer her prayers. But I knew one thing for sure. I am several years down the road from where she is and I am more able. It is times like this, when I am struck by what most people consider to be coincidence, when my belief becomes stronger. Here I was with someone who was falling apart just like I did so long ago, when *I* wasn't able and couldn't get a full sentence to go from my head to my mouth. I bet you all don't believe that, huh! I assure you that it is true. Only there I was listening to her and it made remember where I once was and that I could help her along...since I know the way. Wow, sometimes life makes me wish it was over and sometimes it just blows me away by the things that happen. And when someone comes to you in pieces how good it is to know they left you feeling just a little more okay. You wouldn't believe the similarities between she and I but I cannot describe them here for they are highly personal. Oh my God, it blew me away! I want to apologize for my conduct over the last few days here. I spent too much time stuck and there are so many other things to do, to discuss and to figure out. Marty, I tell you the truth when I say it wasn't personal. That is why I repeated that you were in good hands. I wanted you to address what I felt were contradictions. I don't expect you to believe that but I would put my hand on my Bible and say the same exact thing to you. Anyway, I will try once again to raise my own bar here. Life has so much crap to it but so many rewards that come from out of nowhere. Better to raise the bar so I don't get so stuck on petty things and turn inward otherwise I could waste so much time and not notice when those rewards come to me. There are people who have far worse problems then feeling they are mischaracterized. I am sorry that I glutted the board with my posts and sorry too, Marty, that you saw it as personal. It was not personal on my end, I assure you that. Life is too short for this. My God, you don't know what it felt like to HAVE strong arms to put around her the other night. A sudden sense of gratitude came over me. Okay, I will stop rambling now. I have not prepared this post in advance and have mixed up so many things. Sorry for the ramble folks...I just got blown away the other night when I met her and remembered where I once was and when I saw her again today it all came together, like a wave,stopped me dead in my tracks some how. I need that to happen now and then. Sincerely,
Modified by Jersey Girl at Thu, Aug 22, 2002, 09:17:53 |
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Replies to this message
Re: Between here and there Re: Between here and there -- Jersey Girl Top of thread Archive
Posted by: diehl ®
08/22/2002, 09:14:10
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I agree, the belief is comforting. I wish I could prove it so; I don't believe it is true, but nonetheless it would be nice.
Suicide (I'm not a euphamism type) I would say is probably comtemplated by all of us (us = humanity). I myself have though of it several times, but I also know it's just an esay way out. Plus, honestly, I don't have the guts (or perhaps stupidity) to do it.
What depresses me more is not how full of suffering, pain, and sadness this world is... but the fact that we CAN do something about it, not remove it entirely, but rather lessen it. How hard would that be? I guess my goal is to create "heaven" here, I am not guarenteed another chance (to my knowledge) so I want to make sure that the one I have isn't wasted.
I could sit here and lament on my various woes... but to what ends? It's not going to fix them. That I have to do myself.
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Yeah, exactly Re: Re: Between here and there -- diehl Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Jersey Girl ®
08/22/2002, 09:29:07
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G: Remember what happened the other night? I don't think that you do. Here, I'll send her back to you so you won't forget.
V: Yes, I see her.
G: Do you see where she is?
V: Yes, I know exactly where she is, I was there too.
G: Do you see where you are now?
V: Yes, I know.
G: I gave you something.
V: I know you did.
G: What was it?
V: My mind back, my voice and a future.
G: And what else?
V: You gave me eyes.
G: And what did you see?
V: I saw I had another chance, some gifts and not much time left.
G: And what did I teach you to do with that chance?
V: You taught me to walk through open doors.
G: And what did I teach you to do with the gifts I gave you?
V: You taught me to use them and try to get better at using them.
G: And what did I teach you to do with the time you have left?
V: To use it wisely.
G: And what have you done with it recently?
V: I wasted it.
G: And what were you supposed to be doing with it?
V: Looking for people like her.
G: Why?
V: Because I know what it looks like and you sent people looking for me.
Modified by Jersey Girl at Thu, Aug 22, 2002, 09:29:31
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Re: Between here and there Re: Between here and there -- Jersey Girl Top of thread Archive
Posted by: TLC ®
08/24/2002, 04:49:00
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The personal fuzzy warmth and satifaction that you feel when you want to help others is great. I get that same feeling. It means that you are a good person. You as a person would still have these positive traits even as a nonbeliever. It is your actions and personal conduct towards others,not a belief, that makes what you are.
I,like every other living soul on this planet, do not know whether there is a God of some sort or not. There just isn't any way to know for sure, I don't care what arguement anyone offers up. My feelings are "Fine if there is and fine if there isn't". My bases are all covered. Even the Pope, bless his soul for all of his goodness, does not know for sure.
I suspect that a large number of people use religion as a kind of afterlife insurance just in case. To me this is a hypocritical copout of the here and now. This to me means that they are spending a lot of energy thinking about what might be, instead of on what actually is. My kind of God would judge people soley on conduct and not on beliefs. Free will means exactly that.
I said more here than I originally intended, but there was just something about your post that connected with a soft spot in me. I truly hope you find your way in these matters of the soul.
I have been ill for a spell and have not been around. I intend to participate more now.Your friend,
TLCP.S. I'm sure that St. Peter can arrange some kind of community service for for those such as me, just in case. My point being........Never ever lose your sense of humor. If you do, you are as good as dead anyway.
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On belief as "afterlife insurance" Re: Re: Between here and there -- TLC Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Cal ®
08/24/2002, 13:27:43
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I actually suspect, to make a long story short, that one becomes and remains a religious believer largely because one's beliefs make sense, and that psychological needs as specific as the desire for an afterlife or the right afterlife aren't big parts of the picture.
The "truth" gets revealed in all kinds of ways, all of which make it look like the best explanation of what one's witnessed over the course of one's life. The evidence comes from ostensible healings, changes in people's conduct who adopt the belief, disasters that befall people who reject the right perspective, and so forth.
Of course, longing for the right kind of afterlife can impinge on all of this. But it needn't be the key reason--or even one of the key reasons--for one's belief in God.
I'm bringing all this up because I suspect "afterlife insurance" explanations of belief ring false to most believers. They don't accurately reflect how they've made sense of their experiences.
And believers may be right. "Afterlife insurance" doesn't get at why supernaturalist belief is so natural to most folk, independent of what would console them or allay their fears about death.
At any rate, I'm curious why the "afterlife" explanations come so easily to non-believers. Why do we turn to them so quickly? Perhaps you or someone else here has some insights on all of this.
Modified by Cal at Sat, Aug 24, 2002, 14:34:31
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response Re: On belief as "afterlife insurance" -- Cal Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Fer-de-lance ®
08/24/2002, 15:42:33
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I'm a little cynical when it comes to what motivates people, believer or not. I think the popularity of Nietchze and in general, the desire to turn the tables on traditional views of Christian morality have certainly played a part in the non-believers perception of what does in fact motivates the believer. And of course, just like religious folk, atheists get caught up in their fair share of untenable beliefs.
Atheists would certainly like to have moral grounds in addition to empirically rational grounds by which to justify their own beliefs. Believers are selfishly motivated to do good by rewards promised in heaven, Atheists are motivated to do good by their own honorable intentions as there is no possibility of selfish reward. It's almost too easy.
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Re: For both Cal and Fer-de- lance Re: On belief as "afterlife insurance" -- Cal Top of thread Archive
Posted by: TLC ®
08/31/2002, 01:51:55
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my sometimes often uninformed assumptions, words of comfort to Vicki, I slopply used the term "afterlife insurance". I have heard this term used often in general religion/anti-religion discussions. It probably isn't fair or proper. I don't have any numbers or stats on what percentage of members, of the world's religions that state an afterlife as part of their belief, consider this to be a major influence on their convictions. Fer-de lance says he would bet the majority does not. Any numbers, betting man? Another subject for a poll?
I know that this idea would be the one drawing card that would interest me. All of the other good and positive attributes, especially Christian values on personal conduct, I am already trying to practice to the utmost of my ability.
Please correct me if I'm mistaken, but both of you maybe hinted at me being an Atheist. This is probably a result of my using the term "nonbeliever". My mistake. I will except "Agnostic" in some cases. I am usually grossly annoyed by both Theist's and Atheist's arrogant firm beliefs when stated as facts and when they stand firmly on these without "credible " evidence. Healings, disasters and hearsay that fall into line with beliefs are not actual proof of any high standard, in my opinionated view. Only events that could not even slightly be explained in any other way, would I ever except as legitimate and exceptable.Cal says "supernaturalist belief is so natural to most folk". I often wonder what society's influence is on what we consider natural? I agree that it is natural to wonder about things we don't understand....yet. It may be semantics here, but isn't everything that is.....natural? It's the parts that we don't naturally understand that we label "super". I don't think we should separate the two into different worlds as some so readly do. At the moment we understand something, it becomes non-super, so to speak. Stars were once considered supernatural and now they are not. If, all at once, believers were shown to be mistaken, would they feel foolish? A collegue of mine once stated that if this were the case, he would kill himself. This has always bothered me. Fortunately, religions and politics transitionally change at such a snail's pace that this condition would, hopefully, never present itself. Thank God!
Please indulge me for a moment as I did a little research on the subject of the worlds religions,percentage wise, that I found interesting. From the Canadian Enviromental Education Center.
Christians.........32.9%
Moslems............18.7%
Hindu..............13.2%
Buddhists..........6.0%
"Nonreligious".......6.7%
Atheists...........4.5%
Jews...............3.0
Other religions....8.6%I can't vouch for the accuracy here and it does leave 6.4% unaccounted for. Possibly some mountain and jungle tribes that would be another category?
My point here is, while both of you used Judaism as an example to refute my statement, I feel their numbers are too small a percentage ( at 3%) to use as a meaningful gauge in this matter.The near east religions at 18.2% are a respectable percentage,admittedly, but they don't take home the prize either for being a majority in trends of thinking. With Christians and Moslems totaling 51.6%, their numbers certainly hold respect.These religions certainly hold with the existence of an afterlife. Even if only 25% of this group held full value of the importance of an afterlife in their determinations, the number would still be almost 800 million people. This is what I meant when I stated "large number". I agree that their belief might not include a "well defined personal afterlife", but do people have a "well defined" idea of God or Allah? They certainly can't draw you a picture of what they have in mind but they can certainly voice the extreme importance, of whatever it may be, to them.
I have been threatened with eternal damnnation and unimaginable punishment for even thinking of doubting the existence of Heaven for some of my heretical concepts and views, however mostly in my earlier, almost believing, years.In my bible school years ,I was told that Heaven was the ultimate goal and "you had better be good or you won't go". This was a popular conception and belief among many of my young peers.It was also a very real "fear of failure to comply" that I can well remember.I was not schooled in other world religions.
So, even now, I sometimes let my earlier Ghosts and Goblins well up, to wrongly influence my statements when trying to help others. I certainly have no intention or ambition to "turn the tables on traditional views of Christian morality" as influenced by that "God is dead" guy Nietchze or the like.Fer-de-lance, in your last statement, you say "It's almost too easy". This was referring to the motives both Theists and Atheists use for a clear cut reason (to them) for their "good conduct". That's right, middle ground to them is unthinkable and this is where agnostics have the advantage, I feel. Could "Occam's razor" possibly apply in matters where there are no absolutes. I think not. Your thoughts?
I feel greatly honored to have had knowledgeable persons such as yourselves to have commented on my input on what can be a very personal subject.
With great respect,
TLC
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Re: For both Cal and Fer-de- lance Re: Re: For both Cal and Fer-de- lance -- TLC Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Fer-de-lance ®
09/02/2002, 04:55:04
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I should be careful what I bet on huh? I have a page from a rather old book burnt into my mind that gave an estimate on religious numbers and I seemed to remember the situation being a little more even. Well, obviously I am likely wrong in my assessment that there have been MORE religious non-believers in an after life then believers. However, there are certainly a significant number of religious outlooks that do not/ have not clear after life beliefs. More precisely, it is not necessary for the idea of an afterlife to be a part of religion.
Note that Cal didn't fall into the same unfounded speculation that I did. His point of the Jews does I believe refered to ancient Israel which certainly in numerical terms represents an insignificant class of religious people. However, Judeo-Christianity begins with the Old Testament so the religion of the Israelites is certainly very relevent. The earliest part of the Bible contains to after life doctrines. The idea of resurrection might have crept in around the time of the Babylonian captivity, and the idea of a "soul" I'm not sure is found at all in the Bible--that's more speculative I think.
Consider at least one consequence of this. It is very common to hear street atheists bring up as prime example of the evils of the Christian/Jewish God, the atrocities in the old testament. You know, God sending Israel to kill every man women and child living in Canaan, killing the innocent first born of Egypt, killing Israelites for rutine, accidental, or well meaning disobedience. Now don't get me wrong, I don't think it's clear that the Israelites were necessarily any WORSE then other ancient cultures. You or I would likely have been no better had we been born in that time. However, we look back and say that our idea of morality has evolved since those days and overall, I think we could argue that the kind of God found in the Old Testament is near unbelievable as a moral entity. Today, It is unthinkable to me, to look to the Old Testament for moral guidance!
But back to the point of afterlife. By today's standards, the Israelites may archtypically represent the kind of evils religion is capable of, but note that an afterlife has absolutely nothing to do with it! Israel was materialistic. They were not promised rewards in the afterlife, but rather their rewards consisted of things like 1)Jehova sparing THEIR lives 2) long earthly life 3) luxurious lands to spend their earthly life in 4) lots of progeny.
If religion is evil, we need to look a little deeper then specific doctrines as to why--including the belief in God.
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