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Posted by: jesse ® 07/18/2002, 05:27:40 Author Profile Mail author |
It guess it's summer time and the board is slow so I thought I'd post this before I was due. I just read a news clip that says that Europe's happiest children live in Italy. The clip added that that's because the divorce rate is lowest there - some 90% of families stay together.
The thoughts that I heard over time being promoted is that we don't need to have both parents to bring up happy, well adjusted children. Advocates of single parenting preach this. Politically correctness I guess. On another front, recently, same sex parenting was being promoted too. If the single parent is what the child's got (can be for a million reasons - many times good) that's well and good-- great. Many times a single parent child is more well adjusted that the child with both parents. Some times both-parent families stink. What I don't think is good is the promotion of the idea that the single-parent child is on the same level as the child from a both-parent family when it comes to nurturing. In other words, advancing the idea that it doesn't really matter either way. I see the male parent bringing his male values into the family and this is quite beneficial to the nurturing of the child into a well rounded person. Same for the female parent.
About same sex parents. If that's all the child's got, then I guess it's better that none. But it's not the same. These situations are beneficial for the couples and there wants and needs. The poor child grows up wondering, "How come every body else has a mommy and a daddy and I got two daddys( /two mommys)?" It's the poor child that's to be concerned about. In addition, there's the lack of the values that come from different sex parents in nurturing the child to be well adjusted into society. How can we beat that?
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Re: Happy children in Italy. Re: Happy children in Italy. -- jesse Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Jersey Girl ®
07/18/2002, 05:50:10
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Jesse, I know that you mean well here but you are mixing so many apples and oranges that your basket over floweth. What a child needs most jesse, to become well adjusted into society is the opportunity to attach to at least one person who is capable of bonding with said child, nurturing it, being responsive to and meeting it's needs. Everything else stems from that point and branches out.
I take great exception to your comments on single parents and same sex parents. You simply can not lump people into these categories and rattle off a set of generalized statements about the conditions of their parenting or their child's well being.
A great many children of single parents are reared by undereducated young mothers and grow up in an environment that is economically disadvantaged without adequate healthcare or proper nutrition which sets of a chain of events leading to reduced life chances. Is this always the case? NO!
A great many children of single parents are reared by young mothers who have either the wherewithal, the familial or government subsidized support that allows their child to grow up in healthy, stable and nurturing environments with adequate healthcare, proper nutrtion which sets of a chain of events leading to an increase in life chances.
Not only that jesse, you cannot make generalized statements about the well being of young children no matter what their environment or their resources for you do not take into account the formation of temperament, personality, essentially the vulnerability or invulnerability of specific children in overcoming seemingly any obstacle that is thrown into their path including severe abuse. A child growing up in an affluent two-parent (Mother and Father) home who has every apparent advantage in life can still end up with a crummy outcome due to a myriad of reasons and risk factors.
If you'd like to isolate one particular issue I'd be glad to address it at length if that's your wish for you are now standing squarely on my playing field. What are your specific concerns with regards to the American child? Pick a category jesse. I'll be glad to contrast and compare anything you like.Vicki
Modified by Jersey Girl at Thu, Jul 18, 2002, 05:53:14
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Starting without you Re: Re: Happy children in Italy. -- Jersey Girl Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Jersey Girl ®
07/18/2002, 06:16:13
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jesse, You offer that you think children of same sex parents may suffer because they have 2 Mom's or 2 Dads. Let me enlighten you jesse, and if you need stat's I'll be glad to dig some up for you, a majority of children in our country have 2 Mom's and/or 2 Dads due to remarriage and adoption! Children raised in our country today are faced with a variety of parenting situations and environments. The kid sitting next to you in school is just as likely as you to be raised by 2 homosexuals, 1 single parent, 4 parents, grandparents, foster parents, biracial parents, disabled parents, affluent/professional, working class/blue collar, stay at home Mothers, stay at home Dads, live in Nanny's, group homes, substance abusers and you name it.
The difference between child rearing practices and outcomes in Italy and the US has more to do with values and lifestyle than it has with what you feel are politically correct attitudes and sanctions.
Where would you like to go with this? Show me the destination and I'll take you there.
Vicki
Modified by Jersey Girl at Thu, Jul 18, 2002, 06:21:35
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Re: Happy children in Italy. Re: Re: Happy children in Italy. -- Jersey Girl Top of thread Archive
Posted by: en passant ®
07/18/2002, 11:34:06
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Well said Vicki, but too kind. Jesse, you have a severe case of Western Econo/Religio/Cultural Virus which has reflected poorly on your grasp of reality.
Maybe on some level, you might persuade me that there is value in kids growing up in the burbs with two heterosexual parents. But in your world, these kids undoubtedly have the benefit of the following:
A stay-at-home mom
Their own bedroom in a clean, safe and affordable residence
A father who comes home every night
A father who has a decent paycheck
A father who prefers to sleep with mom
A good scrubbing every Sunday morning and taken (not sent) to church
Enough to eat for lunch (and breakfast and dinner)
The opportunity for a good education, and the the support of their parents in getting one
The opportunity to get a decent job and support a family of their own similar to the lifestyle inferred aboveJesse, these are just a few privileges that are available to only a select, relative few of the children in this economic wonderland we call America. Compared to most of the world's children, who are the particular children are you talking about? (Aside from the happy ones in Italy, of course--the ones who gorge on tasty Italian food and have a view of the Adriatic from their family villa while staunch generations of mothers, fathers, uncles, aunts, and grandparents (all married) look after them.)
How dare you even imply that all the world's children should fit into your cute little well made Christian suburban box. I bet in your mind's eye, you even see them as all white. Right?
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Too kind? Re: Re: Happy children in Italy. -- en passant Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Jersey Girl ®
07/18/2002, 13:10:34
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Well, en passant, Before I edited my first post it began with the sentence "I know you mean well, but you're full of crap". I have to give jesse the benefit of the doubt here. He is severely over simplifying the issues as most people do. He is a victim of bias and shallow thinking. I would greatly like to fill in the blanks for him for it is, as they say, my cup of tea.
Vicki
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Read again. Re: Re: Happy children in Italy. -- en passant Top of thread Archive
Posted by: jesse ®
07/19/2002, 02:53:40
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It's seems obvious that you need to re-read my post.
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See my post below. Re: Re: Happy children in Italy. -- Jersey Girl Top of thread Archive
Posted by: jesse ®
07/19/2002, 02:38:12
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Re: Happy children in Italy. Re: Happy children in Italy. -- jesse Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Darr ®
07/18/2002, 09:56:52
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Jesse wrote, "I just read a news clip that says that Europe's happiest children live in Italy." Interesting! I recently read a news clip that said Elvis is alive.
Before you start using some vague news clip to validate your own religious bias, you must first learn a few lessons.
To start with try providing us with a source so that we can check to see if you actually understood what you read. Then we would also need to see what countries were included and then more than likely would like to read the actual questions on the survey and also gain some insight as to the demographics of those surveyed.
I once read a survey wherein 100% of the participants agreed that the best crop a farmer could grow was corn. They were also in unanimous agreement that corn should be in everyone's diet. In fact, the survey was taken by former employers of mine and I could easily verify the results. But here's the rub. They went to a small rural town -- population 4 families. All were corn growers. Not exactly a great statistical sampling.
Now to add to the problems of statistical analysis of surveys comes one huge stumbling block, i.e. the definition of happy and determining whether one state of happiness is happier than another.
On a personal note, I would have loved to have traded an alcoholic parent who disciplined with the belt buckle to any fine Christian home in need of two heterosexual parents for a less "happier" state of existence.
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Jesse... Re: Re: Happy children in Italy. -- Darr Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Martin ®
07/18/2002, 19:30:30
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... is of course well known for rarely having the barest clue what the hell he is talking about. He will believe just about any horseshit as long as it appeals to his shockingly ignorant and biased opinions. It doesn't surprise me that he didn't cite his source for this alleged "information", since he probably knows an intelligent reader will very likely find that he has once again misrepresented the facts to some extent or another, as he is wont to do.
Anyway, I did some Net searching and was unable to find Jesse's claims anywhere (which, of course, does not mean it's not out there, but google is pretty damn exhaustive). But take a look at some of the things I did find:
From: Retrouvaille expands program to Italy: "In recent years, the Italian divorce rate has tripled..."
I found that the lowest divorce rates, according to a list published in the Miami Herald in 1998, are found in Sri Lanka, which has roughly half the divorce rate in Italy.
I also skimmed through a scientific report which appears to argue (it was too long to read carefully) that some significant reasons divorce rates are fairly low in Italy involve low fertility rates and economic differences relating to gender equality.
I tend to doubt Jesse will provide a citation...
- Martin
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Re: Jesse... Re: Jesse... -- Martin Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Jersey Girl ®
07/19/2002, 16:18:57
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Dear Martin, If jesse's information concerning divorce rates in Italy are accurate, I'd bet a dime to a dollar that the primary reason for this has more to do with religious beliefs/practices than anything else since in my estimation Italy is most certainly predominantly Catholic, no?
Ciao,
Vicki
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Jesse & Catholicism Re: Re: Jesse... -- Jersey Girl Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Martin ®
07/20/2002, 09:51:20
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Vicki, Please see my reply to Darr about Jesse's claims: Jesse...
Economic issues relating to gender seems to be an important factor there from the scientific article I skimmed through, but I would tend to agree that the Roman Catholic stand on divorce likely plays a major role.
One wonders, then, why Jesse doesn't advocate that everyone convert to Catholicism, for the sake of the children, of course... ;)
- Martin
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Re: Jesse & Catholicism Re: Jesse & Catholicism -- Martin Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Jersey Girl ®
07/20/2002, 13:42:46
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Martin,
Hey! Are you even reading my posts here? Some of my best stuff is being written for cyber posterity! It's not often that I can sink my teeth into a thread like this. Woo hoo! When I'm good, I'm good!Vicki
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Re: Jesse & Catholicism Re: Re: Jesse & Catholicism -- Jersey Girl Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Martin ®
07/20/2002, 14:16:18
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Dear Vicki, Yes, I am indeed reading them. Nice work!
- Martin
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I said the same thing. Re: Re: Happy children in Italy. -- Darr Top of thread Archive
Posted by: jesse ®
07/19/2002, 02:57:42
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"On a personal note, I would have loved to have traded an alcoholic parent who disciplined with the belt buckle to any fine Christian home in need of two heterosexual parents for a less "happier" state of existence. " When I said that some two-parent (heterosexual) families stink.
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In essence I'm saying that Re: Happy children in Italy. -- jesse Top of thread Archive
Posted by: jesse ®
07/19/2002, 02:36:23
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In essence I'm saying that even though all types of parenting can be of benefit to a child (depending on the know how of the parent, etc), there is the kind that is best, as compared to better, good, sufficing and so on. Using a standard for all the adults (parents) involved, whereby they all have equivalent parenting qualities, the best by far is the heterosexual two parent setting. In other words why promote something that's OK or something that can suffice, when there is better and best? Any advocating other than that is very likely due to an effort to be politically correct.
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Here is PC! Re: In essence I'm saying that -- jesse Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Wayne Wilson ®
07/19/2002, 03:16:45
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Jesse
Can you prove beyond any doubt that a child raised by same sex parents is less or more "happy" then a child from a Het couple, who gives the same amount of love and attention that the Gay couple give's?My son goes to school with five kids who come from families headed by same sex parents. The children don't seem to be lacking in any way. They are just as "happy" as my son who comes from a Het family.
If you disagree with me, than it's probably due to your lack of understanding and education.
Wayne
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Love your dogmatism. One can't PROVE such things. Re: Here is PC! -- Wayne Wilson Top of thread Archive
Posted by: jesse ®
07/19/2002, 05:05:07
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I love your dogmatism in the following statement:
"If you disagree with me, than it's probably due to your lack of understanding and education."
Only you can be right. People who are always right don't never surprise me.Concerning whether your child in question can be happy. Not if they are confused by their situation and are incapable of understanding it. Remember that it's only the adults "understand" the situation they have put the child in. Everything is well and OK with the adults -- obviously. The child will obviously have to grow to a certain analytic age before it's capable of figuring out and perhaps accepting ....
There are children now that envy others that have a dad and they act up in different ways that you might call "happiness." And this is simplier than the two moms, two dads situation.
Such things are not necessarily be proven. There is no mystery as to why. Such things are more easily deduced.
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Happy does not equal well adjusted ! Re: Love your dogmatism. One can't PROVE such things. -- jesse Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Jersey Girl ®
07/19/2002, 17:29:40
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jesse and Wayne, A child's happiness does not ensure that the child is well adjusted. Children who are the product of overly indulgent, permissive and unathoritative parenting are most likely observed as "happy" though certainly NOT well adjusted.
jesse, a child raised in a non-traditional parenting environment (and may I point out to you that a child being raised in a two parent home without step parents is fast becoming the definitive non-traditional environment...did you copy that?) is no less "confused" than any other child. A child knows only what they are accustomed to. Their world is defined by what they are exposed to in the immediate area of their own home.
The next point of exposure is just beyond the home. Extended family, childcare providers, healthcare professionals, teachers, church nursery workers and the like. Think of it as a web with the immediate family/home in the middle, that branches out.
The broadest exposure to society and a wide range of other people comes when the child enters formal schooling. And there jesse, the child of a single parent and the child of same sex parents will come in contact with children being parented in the same types of environments as THEIR OWN! Not only that, they will go to school with children conceived via artificial insemination, invitro fertilization, surrogacy and acquired via adoption. They will learn beside children adopted from China, from Russia and those who suffered the orphanges of Romania. If you want to know what disadvantaged is jesse, research the orphanage system in Russia, it will make you cry openly. Go ahead, click on keyword "Baby Houses" and see what comes up. They will come to know children with HIV, Hep and a myriad of other types of infectious and transmitable diseases. They will play with children with Downs, CP, CF, Crack babies, FAS babies, Spinabifida, children with walkers and in wheel chairs with oxygen tanks and feeding tubes strapped to their side. And God willing jesse, they will learn to take care of eachother, to respect and regard eachother, to value, support eachother, to cheer eachother on and to love eachother. That jesse, is the ultimate purpose of inclusion. To prepare all children for the real world they will grow to adulthood in.
You need to stop and think for a moment, jesse. The traditional family is virtually non-existent in today's America! The majority of children in our country today are NOT being raised in a home with 2 biological parents! What you think of as the ideal, NO LONGER EXISTS. The NORM jesse, is step parents and step siblings. I highly recommened that you make a visit to your local public elementary school and see for yourself what is taking place with regards to inclusion. It will broaden the scope of your awareness and understanding of the plight of children, what they are being exposed to and WHY.
Of course that is assuming that I haven't already gotten to you!
Vicki
Modified by Jersey Girl at Fri, Jul 19, 2002, 17:54:43
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True happiness, not momentary happiness! Re: Happy does not equal well adjusted ! -- Jersey Girl Top of thread Archive
Posted by: jesse ®
07/20/2002, 04:56:59
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"What you think of as the ideal, NO LONGER EXISTS." Where?
It seem to exist in some other places including Italy.Also the kind of children you described as happy but not necessarily well adjusted are probably momentarily happy, but definitely not happy. Their lives are so screwed up, having "overly indulgent, permissive and unathoritative parenting"
that they absolutely cannot be happy in the true sense of the word.
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There is no such thing as true happiness Re: True happiness, not momentary happiness! -- jesse Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Jersey Girl ®
07/20/2002, 13:24:43
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jesse, I'm going to ask you to describe or define "true happiness" and tell me how long you think it can be sustained?
Vicki
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Of course I don't mean endless happiness. Re: There is no such thing as true happiness -- Jersey Girl Top of thread Archive
Posted by: jesse ®
07/23/2002, 04:26:17
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Of course I don't mean endless happiness. There's no such thing as far as I'm concerned. I recall many a comments from experts on the subject that says: Children usually prefer parents who set rules and impose them. The children in such references claim that they felt more loved and cared for. That is the sort of end result that I refer to as true happiness.
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Let me rephrase that remark, jesse Re: Of course I don't mean endless happiness. -- jesse Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Jersey Girl ®
07/23/2002, 14:37:02
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jesse: Children ususally prefer parents who set rules and impose them. Me: Children feel more secure when parents set rules based on reasonable expectations with relevant consequences. Security, love and care are interrelated.
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Sounds like what I would say. Re: Let me rephrase that remark, jesse -- Jersey Girl Top of thread Archive
Posted by: jesse ®
07/25/2002, 05:09:40
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On Jesse's "deductions" Re: Here is PC! -- Wayne Wilson Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Martin ®
07/19/2002, 16:56:40
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(Sorry, Wayne, but Jesse has set up the very stupidly "designed" feature of the board that blocks me from posting to him directly. I hope you won't mind if I post here in reply to him.) Jesse posted additional ignorant claims, among which were his allegation that "understanding" is required for happiness and that he can't "prove" his claims but can only "deduce" them. I would therefore like to know precisely how and by what general principles he "deduced" his "facts".
If understanding is actually required for happiness, he must be a very unhappy man indeed...
- Martin
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Stay with me, jesse? Re: In essence I'm saying that -- jesse Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Jersey Girl ®
07/19/2002, 04:38:15
Author Profile Mail author
jesse,
I'm going to assume that you're serious about this topic and so I'll take this as an opportunity to address it seriously. See if you can tune out the rhetoric around you and stay with me on this. My guess is that you are not a parent but could be one day. Should parenting become a reality for you, you will no doubt find someone like me in your path and be thrust into a world you feel unprepared for. Let's start now.I'm going to ask you to expand on some statements you made. When you're done, I'm going to draw out your intitial points and when we reach a certain place, I'll wrap it up and put a bow on it for you. You're going to see a different side to me, jesse. I hope you can stay with it, for it's vitally important. As I said in an earlier post,I am one of the voices...now I'm going to talk directly to you, on "their" behalf.
1. You refer to "all types of parenting". Tell me what you mean by that.
2. The "know how" of the parent. Define "know how" and tell me, where you think it comes from.3. The "kind that is best". Tell me what kind you think is best.
4. "Equivalent parenting qualities". What qualities are you thinking of?
5. Tell me your definition of "inclusion". Don't use the dictionary, jesse! Tell me in your own words, what inclusion means to you.
Now, I'd like to address this comment you made. Let me pull out my my soap box.
You: In other words why promote something that's OK or something that can suffice, when there is better and best?
Me: Why do you think there is a promotional effort to sanction same sex parenting? Do you think there is also an effort to promote single parenting? jesse, children do not have the advantage of choosing what kind of environment they are born into. Adults make these decisions and there are no guarantees. A child may be born to a same sex hetero couple and be thrust into a single parenting situation due to separation, divorce, death of a parent or abandonment. Their socio-economic standing can dissolve with the slam of a door. The roots of their security can be cut loose with one phone call, leaving a child untethered. It is the untethered child jesse, who is at highest risk. And who poses the highest risk to YOU.
Not long ago jesse, there was national attention brought to a same sex gay couple (by Rosie, I think) who were parenting a family of disabled children. Children that no one else wanted. Children with Aids and such as that. The state (Florida?) was preparing to take the children away from these two men. The men were obviously compassionate,loving,strongly bonded to and committed to their children. The court decision would place the children in institutions or transient foster care. Should those children be permitted to remain under the high quality care of a devoted, monogomous, and loving gay couple who are well able to provide for them in every way imaginable or should the children be placed in long term foster care in the hopes that a heterosexual couple will one day adopt them? How many years should children like this wait in foster care, jesse? Keeping in mind that each passing year that they wait without a stable family environment, without a sense of belonging, without the security of knowing they are permanently planted within a family...their self esteem, their sense of self, their sense of self worth and their ability to attach and bond, erodes with each passing day? You tell me. Do you fully understand the ramifications of this state of being? If not, you tell me and I'll lay it out for you. For the child in this situation jesse, impacts YOU!
I have looked into the eyes of attachment disorder, jesse. It is a bone chilling site. I would for all the world have seen these children in a loving and stable environment being raised by a loving and committed homosexual couple than the institutionalization that took away their soul. Once the soul is gone jesse, there is no getting it back. Each child has a small hand full of years jesse, when they are able to be penetrated. When the window of their soul is open and waiting to be nurtured. It is the nurturing that grows a child, jesse. It grows their mind, their heart and their body. Then the window shuts. And when it does, it shuts forever. Whatever has been stuffed into them remains, what ever they have not been provided with can no longer get in. All deliveries are cancelled, jesse. Try as you might to deliver, there is no one home to open the packages. Do you begin to understand that your black and white position isn't realistic?
What you see as political correctness, is inclusion. It is respect for all types of families, it is honoring the loving state of adults who come together to raise a child. It is essentially, honoring children. When an infant is held by an adult jesse, their gaze draws up to the adults eyes. It doesn't matter jesse, if the adult is married, hetero, homosexual, rich or poor, or even if they are related SO LONG AS THEY LOOK BACK. This is the stuff that grows a child and makes it internally, psychologically and morally strong. It is the stuff that enables a child to overcome what life throws at them. It is what fuels our ability to be loving, kind, altruistic, honest, and any other value you can list. It is what makes us pursue life and want to give something back. It is what forms the beads on the string we call society. I'll make a believer out of you, jesse. It is what I do.
For them,
Vicki
Modified by Jersey Girl at Fri, Jul 19, 2002, 04:51:29
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Re: Stay with me, jesse? Re: Stay with me, jesse? -- Jersey Girl Top of thread Archive
Posted by: jesse ®
07/19/2002, 06:13:20
Author Profile Mail author
I'll hang with you but I got to run for now. I'll be back.
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Parenting/Gay Couples Re: Re: Stay with me, jesse? -- jesse Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Jersey Girl ®
07/19/2002, 11:19:46
Author Profile Mail author
jesse, Mind if I type while you're gone? There are so many things that I want to throw out to you that it's difficult to pick and choose. The core of our parenting skills comes from our own parents. Whether we are aware of it or not, it's all been filed away. People read books on child rearing (not nearly enough people), they take parenting classes (from people like me), and strive to improve their skills. From the moment the pregnancy test reads positive or the adoption papers are filed, most people want the very best for their child and want to give their child the best of themselves. But when the rubber meets the road, when it gets tough...we model our parents.
I realize that you may have some built in biases towards homosexual couples, and that's alright for now. But be forewarned, I'm going to change your mind or at least give you some things to think about. When you minimize the effectiveness and viability of homosexuals as parents, you not only diminish them as human beings but their parents as well. I think it fair to state that most homosexuals were raised by hetero parents and that most homosexual couples will raise heterosexual children. Sexuality has virtually nothing to do with parenting. Do you see that you cannot make blanket statements about what constitutes quality parenting?
Consider what it takes for the average hetero couple to produce a child and factor in whether or not the child was planned for or not. Virtually every child belonging to a homosexual couple (unless one is indeed the custodial parent) is planned for. It is more likely that the child is the result of artificial insemination, invitro fertilization, surrogacy or adoption. These are people who have made an intentional and calculated decision to become parents. These are chldren who were hoped for, planned for and deeply WANTED.
You are attempting to judged the quality of parenting and trying to determine what situation is best for a child when you cannot begin to know the particulars. In doing so, you fail to realize that you're putting the cart before the horse. Whether or not a person or couple will make competant parents cannot be fully known until AFTER the child has arrived. You yourself cannot begin to know waht kind of parent YOU will make until you're in the trenches of parenting.
It is a very fortunate child who is hoped for, planned for, and WANTED, jesse. And yes, it is more desirable for a child to have two parents. But it doesn't matter a hoot whether the two are hetero or homosexual! What matters most, is that the child has been brought into a situation where one parent is the primary caregiver. Do you see that word, jesse? "Care giver". Every child needs a care giver. When it comes to "care giving" gender is not a factor. The ability to "give care" is the only factor. The ability to devote one's time and attention to another human being. That's where it's at, jesse. Lacking a parent to take on that role, it can easy be taken on by a grandparent or other relative.
The original question you asked in comparing Italy to the USA with regards to child rearing has nothing to do with political correctness. There are so many issues popping up in my mind that I cannot contain them! If you are worried about the American child jesse, the answer lies not in the sexuality of it's parents but in the condition of our society! I'll be glad to address that if you like, infact, I wouldn't be at all surprised that I go ahead and post to it while you're gone! Let me give you a hint, a vast majority of our children are being raised in substandard institutions.
Vicki
Modified by Jersey Girl at Fri, Jul 19, 2002, 11:21:34
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Re: Parenting/Gay Couples Re: Parenting/Gay Couples -- Jersey Girl Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Wayne Wilson ®
07/19/2002, 13:32:24
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Vicki In your experience are children, who have a supportive relationship with other family members besides their parents, "happier" then someone who is primarily raised by one or both parents?
Wayne
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Re: Parenting/Gay Couples Re: Re: Parenting/Gay Couples -- Wayne Wilson Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Jersey Girl ®
07/19/2002, 15:13:36
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Wayne, No child is raised primarily by one or two parents. Each adult who interacts with the child for any length of time impacts the child whether they are blood or not. I would go so far as to say that any adult who spends even a brief period of time with a child influences the child's self image. I guarantee you Wayne, that if you spend 30 minutes interacting with a young child you will teach him/her something.
Think of adults as mirrors in which children see themselves. The reflection that children see of themselves in adults, becomes a a part of that child if only for a brief period of time. All of those reflected "snapshots" come together to establish a self image.Close family ties can certainly contribute to a child's well being. Supportive and loving intrafamilial influences serve to insulate a child and open a series of doors, if you will, in addition to parental influence. The next best thing to a wide range of caring and committed family members is a collection of friends, neighbors and other extrafamilial influences such as teachers, church members, scout leaders, coaches, and such who provide those positive reflections.
A child's self image is like a bank. What you put in reinforces, what you withdraw or deny...diminishes. That is not to say that children should be denied the right and advantage of experiencing frustration, conflict or loss. Quite the contrary is true. In order to produce a well rounded personality one must be permitted exposure to a well rounded variety of experiences. Chronic neglect, abuse, even indulgence or over permissiveness is harmful to the self esteem, self image and personality development of a child. Okay, that's probably more than you wanted to hear! Did that help?
Vicki
Modified by Jersey Girl at Fri, Jul 19, 2002, 16:13:28
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Re: Parenting/Gay Couples Re: Re: Parenting/Gay Couples -- Jersey Girl Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Wayne Wilson ®
07/20/2002, 02:47:33
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Vicki
I cannot agree with you more.
Watching my son's personality develop for the last six years, affirms for me what you have said.
Wayne
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Picture this Re: Re: Parenting/Gay Couples -- Wayne Wilson Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Jersey Girl ®
07/20/2002, 03:04:50
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Picture your healthy son with mirrors that reflect contempt, ridicule or indifference. Reflections that turn away or images that inflict pain. In order to "survive" the ongoing suffering, the child is forced to psychologically erase their own image. The situation jesse attempts to describe does not come from other children. It comes from the adults who are raising them. People who think that acknowledging, NOT promoting, single parenting or same sex parenting has something to do with political correctness instead of compassion. ALL parents should be affirmed and all children provided for, if it takes the whole village then what of it? Vicki
p.s. Pretty scary when I know what I'm talking about, huh? :)
Modified by Jersey Girl at Sat, Jul 20, 2002, 03:06:56
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Parenting/Alone Re: Parenting/Gay Couples -- Jersey Girl Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Jersey Girl ®
07/19/2002, 15:06:19
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jesse, See, what'd I tell you? I'm moving forward as predicted. Let me address, if only superficially, your assessment that single parenting is being promoted due to political correctness.
Not including the rich and famous, I doubt that you'll find many single parents who promote single parenting for it is one of life's toughest challenges. Being awake, aware and soley responsible 24/7 is no picnic. The loss of freedom alone is enough to drive one into depression.
For the vast majority, single parenting was not a choice. It was thrust on individuals due to abandonment, divorce/separation or death of a spouse/partner. You can include unplanned pregnancy right in there with abandonment so far as I'm concerned and don't give me the "she knew what she was doing when..." because so did "he". Among parents who abandon, the higher percentage is comprised of the "he's".
The group at highest risk are undeniably children being parented by single teen mothers. The mother's education has been interrupted (in many cases never to be resumed), their social opportunities limited and their economic outlook bleak. What goes around, comes around to the child. If the child has the support of extended family, community and/or government...when those elements are in place, the child has every advantage that the 2-parent child has.
I think what you were driving at in your OP jesse, has to do with role models. A child most assuredly benefits from interaction with good role models from both genders. That is a definite certainty. The child of a single parent has not far to go to find another gender role model. Grandparents, Aunts, Uncles, Cousins, teachers, scout leaders, church family members and the like are all likely resources, who are in a position to positively influence the child. (I should stop right here and include that all of those mentioned above are also likely sources of abuse and molestation...do you begin to see what complex issues you raised?)
The child of a single parent need not lack economically, socially, emotionally, physically or psychologically so long as the parent has the wherewithal to access the appropriate resources and the community/government makes a concerted effort to outreach both child and parent. Human/Social Services and Head Start Program will plug a parent in to an enormous bank of resources to give both child and parent a leg up. What helps the parent, helps the child. What helps the child jesse, helps YOU.
jesse, the person on the other side of the screen that you're reading right now is the product of a "broken home", the child of a single parent, who grew up in a economically disadvantaged situation (to say the least). And while she carries baggage, she did not grow to be an axe murder or social deviant. She grew to be an adult who outreaches parents and children and who advocates for those in the kinds of situations that she was subjected to. She was not completely invulnerable, not by a long shot. But she had one clear advantage...one parent who thought the sun rose and set on her, who devoted their life to her care and who stuffed her full of those good and strong things while the window was wide open. These are the things that carry one through life, jesse. They are the things that help you clear the hurdles.
It is not politically correct to acknowlege single parents jesse, it is the right and human thing to do. When we bring honor and acceptance to parents, we bring honor and acceptance to their children.
Vicki
Modified by Jersey Girl at Sat, Jul 20, 2002, 15:59:32
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Re: Parenting/Alone Re: Parenting/Alone -- Jersey Girl Top of thread Archive
Posted by: jesse ®
07/20/2002, 02:59:26
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I'm responding to your two above posts here. Top post.
My only response to your top on is: You seem to be missing my point that THE CHILD is the one that is usually overlooked. What I mean is that many get or adopt a child to satisfy THEIR needs and wants (I stated this clearly already) and the child of course has no say. The child cannot say that he or she prefers to be in such and such a situation rather that ……………If the child had the chance they would surely choose not to have same sex parents because of the obvious implications.
The child is supposed to be the horse. Not that the child should pull/lead the parent, but consideration for the child should be NUMBER ONE/NUMERO UNO, not the need/want of the parents to have a child. Look around the world and you'll see what I mean.
Make sure you don't skip this point when you respond.This post.
You say, "And while she carries baggage, she did not grow to be an axe murder or social deviant."
First, I never mentioned murderer, deviant in my post. I was not talking about extremes. I also stated that bad parents come in all types of settings.
Secondly, I fully support single parenting. After all, that's how it is for millions of children that just found themselves in that situation. When my parents left for another country my grandmother took excellent care of me, by her self. So I'm not putting down single parenting. What I'll repeat is that I don't think that it should be PROMOTED as a just-as-good alternative to two-parenting. (that's where the political correctness comes in) Read my post again.
I like talking to you. I like your tone.
By the way, I'm glad to know of the experience you have in this field. I'm also glad that I could start a topic that fits right in with your expertise.
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Re: Parenting/Alone Re: Re: Parenting/Alone -- jesse Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Jersey Girl ®
07/20/2002, 13:38:14
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Hi jesse, I just came back from an incredibly depressing event so if I seem distracted, that's why. I'm very glad that you started this thread because it gives me an opportunity to advocate and hopefully, help people 2think more deeply about children.
I'm going to lead in with this statement: Virtually every child that is hoped for, planned for and deeply wanted is the result of self focus and self longing on the part of adults who have a strong desire to reproduce themselves, to ensure (so far as they have some control over it)that a part of them goes on. From that point on you can make some generalized statements with regards to couple's wanting to share their love with another human being. As soon as the infant/child arrives...no matter what path they took to arrival, be it biological routes or adoption, the parents focus rapidly shifts to the infant.
People who adopt are put through a battery of inquiries and scrutinized in ways that the average, healthy, and fertile hetero couple are not. The going "rate" for a hetero baby, jesse is two couples united in body. The "price tag" for the adoptive child is astronomical interms of legal issues, cost, etc.
I disagree STRONGLY that the child should be number 1! Does that surprise you? Let me tell you why. Good and healthy families jesse, start with well adjusted adults and well formed couples. The primary focus should ALWAYS be on the marital relationship and what makes it strong for that is where the child's strength lies. Parents are their children's anchor, one must make sure that the vessel (the relationship between parents) is strong and sturdy!
(aside, gosh, I hope folks are reading all of these posts for they're some of my best stuff ! :)
Now, I'm going to ask you a question I should have asked you to start with. Tell me HOW you think single parenting and same sex parenting is being promoted today? Can you give me some examples?
Vicki
p.s. your grandma did a good job, jesse. I mean that with all sincerity. I know you're taking alot of flack here but I detect a heartbeat. I respect that more than anything else in another person.
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Re: Parenting/Alone Re: Re: Parenting/Alone -- Jersey Girl Top of thread Archive
Posted by: jesse ®
07/25/2002, 05:21:20
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We'll I'm not going to say much, but just take a look at the recent events involving Rosie and Florida and all that was said and is being said. Look also at the trouble that Vice president, Dale (for Father Bush I think) got into when he made that family values comment about the Murphy Brown TV character having a baby, single, and promoting it as just as good …….
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Martin has access to every petty anything. Re: Happy children in Italy. -- jesse Top of thread Archive
Posted by: jesse ®
07/19/2002, 02:52:11
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And so if he can't find it, it surely doesn't exist. The source of the comment is out there. If he still wants it I'll supply it. But in the mean time he shouldn't be too concerned about the statement which really is not a big deal. The statement only triggered my stating some points I think about sometimes. In other words, we should concentrate basically on the points I'm trying to make and not what prompted me to state them. I think this post can work like that.
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Please supply the the source. Re: Martin has access to every petty anything. -- jesse Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Wayne Wilson ®
07/19/2002, 03:25:36
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Jesse,
So basically what you are saying is your opinion is based on nothing but your own narrow experiences.If you actually had studied or even read studies that showed that kids from two parent, heterosexual families are better off, than Martin et al would take you seriously.
Since your opinion does not seem to be based on anything concrete, then no one here has any reason to take said opinion seriously.
Wayne
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Jesse's fraudulent behavior Re: Please supply the the source. -- Wayne Wilson Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Martin ®
07/19/2002, 16:44:22
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I think it's quite laughable and also good evidence of Jesse's fundamental unfairness and disingenuousness that he has gone to the trouble of blocking my posts (which is why I have to post here -- sorry Wayne) but then goes ahead and reads my posts anyway!! What a clown this guy is!
- - -
I'm with you, Wayne. Thanks!
I also would like to see his source.
- Martin
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(aside Martin) Re: Jesse's fraudulent behavior -- Martin Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Jersey Girl ®
07/19/2002, 18:06:59
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Blocked are ya? What'd ya do this time? Doesn't it give you a sense of disconnectedness? Of course, I've only been blocked by one poster. Actually, you demonstrate quite nicely the ineffectiveness of the blocking system. It doesn't prevent another poster from replying to you, it just makes the replies harder to find! Kinda makes you work harder on those detective skills...Mwah, ha-ha! ;) Vicki
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Why can't Jesse read? Re: Please supply the the source. -- Wayne Wilson Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Martin ®
07/19/2002, 18:26:24
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(Sorry to have to reply here again, Wayne. I'd much prefer to respond to Jesse's posts directly, but unfortunately, he's something of an intellectual coward and so he has blocked my ability to reply to him, probably out of fear that he might learn something he doesn't wish to learn). - - -
Jesse remarked: "Martin has access to every petty anything. And so if he can't find it, it surely doesn't exist."
Let's observe once again what a disingenuous poster Jesse is by examining his remark in light of what I had actually written, which was: "Anyway, I did some Net searching and was unable to find Jesse's claims anywhere (which, of course, does not mean it's not out there, but google is pretty damn exhaustive)."
This is just another example of the kind of basic dishonesty and unfairness I've afraid we've come to expect from him.
- Martin
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Jesse care for a game of Go. Re: Please supply the the source. -- Wayne Wilson Top of thread Archive
Posted by: Wayne Wilson ®
07/20/2002, 03:10:55
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